Like a powerplay

[Beefymcfc]

Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Does he tell them to shoot or put the ball in first time ? I suppose neither matter if there are no defenders.

No idea mate. Just to point out that there is no benefit in sticking 10 players in the box and asking the forward players to try and walk through them, it's unnatural. Yes, we are seeing it game after game but it's down to individuals and the team to use their own skill and judgement to try and score the goal.

[Florida Blue]

Every time I watch us at the moment it reminds me of when a team has a powerplay in Ice Hockey. That is when the oppo has a man down. The accepted method is to get yourself in the attacking third and set yourselves up moving the puck around, and probing for an opening. Like wise the defensive team set themselves in 'box' formation, and a game of cat and mouse ensues for a couple of minutes with the short handed team hoping to counter attack if possible, but usually content to merely clear their lines.
This is what seems to happen with us. Rather than sweep upfield in a flowing movement we give it to Yaya who will arse about with it until we're set but also so is the defence.
Is Bob a closet Maple Leafs fan?

The other thing that springs to mind is when we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Barton scoring a penalty and the rest of the game taking place on the edge of our box with the Arse never really looking like breaking us down.

Do we train like this or does it look different at Carrington? It has gone on a right long time now.

I think there is a huge difference in how that works. In hockey there is no offsides in the offensive zone, the play can be manipulated from behind the net, and frankly it is a lot easier to blast a small puck through a crowd then a ball, and you are looking for deflections as a means to the back of the net. Additionally, screening is allowed in hockey, I have never seen it used outside of 5v5 or 7v7 in footy where offsides is not an issue.

Piccs I totally agree with how we look bad in the box with the end result, but I don't see how a hockey mindset can be applied.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

It sounds crap, but I used to watch us train at Platt Lane, and with Alan Ball in charge we couldn't even do it with no opposition! And I'm being serious there.

[Ted Hughes]

Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Does he tell them to shoot or put the ball in first time ? I suppose neither matter if there are no defenders.

No idea mate. Just to point out that there is no benefit in sticking 10 players in the box and asking the forward players to try and walk through them, it's unnatural. Yes, we are seeing it game after game but it's down to individuals and the team to use their own skill and judgement to try and score the goal.

Not in my opinion.

The rags have practiced stuff like that since Giggs was a kid. Even simple stuff like the correct weight & direction on a ball played to a player on the edge of a packed penalty area in order to receive a return pass in a tight area & shoot, as in Hughes/Cantona, Cole/York, Giggs/Scholes/Rooney etc etc. Basic stuff like playing the ball straight at the centre of the bloke facing you, not to his left or right, so the defender can't see the ball or get a foot in without fouling the player with his back to him (how many free kicks do they get for that ?)

They know how to set up Scholes, Rooney, RVP for a shot because they practice it.

[john68]

Flo,
Piccs is right with his hockey powerplay analogy in that, though the details may be different, the defensive strategies used are tried and tested over many years and perfected over many games. The same with football mate. What defensive teams are doing to us is like setting up a wall (think free kick) except it is mobile and sliding. A defensive strategy again perfected over many seasons.

Like the hedgehog and the tortoise i alluded to, they have no interest in attacking but the challenge is "this is my tried and tested defensive position, which I will revert to by default as soon as you get possession. Try and get in"

[MilnersJaw]

Well city have had something missing for ages now and it is quite obvious. No creative central midfielder. Yaya does what he does and the rest Barry and co just hold it up an pass it back and forth around the box. Not too mention slow it down. Silva can't do it a on his own and plays further upfield. In that first Madrid game away, Barry couldn't do anything, as soon as he got it, a player was on his case.

[Florida Blue]

I will agree to disagree, but I will say this we need to shoot more, and not the selfish type Kun took on Boxing Day. We seem to move the ball well, but always try 1-2 more passes than needed.

[john68]

I will agree to disagree, but I will say this we need to shoot more, and not the selfish type Kun took on Boxing Day. We seem to move the ball well, but always try 1-2 more passes than needed.

Disagreeing is fine Flo.
In honesty, shooting more is only a part of it Bryan. The deal is where we shoot from. You are right that we always seem to take that extra pass too many. By doing so, we merely compress the defence even further and diminish our own space even more.

The answer is to create a threat from a longer distance, thus making defences feel unsafe to allow us the free space in front of them. If they feel unsafe, they will be tempted to move out to defend the longer threat and thus leave more space.

Although this may sound silly, our problem is caused by our level of possession causing defences to contract. Itmay be necessary to feed them titbits to bring tempt them out and allow us more space. I would like to see the likes of Yaya, Milner, Barry etc lurking on the edge of the area and hammering a few shots in.

[Beefymcfc]

Just a comment on what I see in training.Yes they do work on attacking plays with good movement and crisp passing but there is a big big difference to training and the real thing.In training they mostly do it with no opposition on the field!

It enables Mancini to get across his ideas about movement,switching positions (in midfield and in the box) but it doesn't build in someone like Cattermole lunging in to the ball in midfield or the fact that with any ball into say Kun in the box there are 2 or 3 defenders very close to him.

Does that make a difference? I don't know although I have always been a little surprised at how little work is done on a full pitch with opposition to play against.From what I hear it's the same throughout the league and for sure it's what we have done since Mancini arrived so I can't say it's wrong can I?

It's normal Doug. What has to be taken into account is the quality of player. Looking at our players, we're not really coaching them at that stage, more giving them the technical awareness of what they'll face or where they can prosper.

Does he tell them to shoot or put the ball in first time ? I suppose neither matter if there are no defenders.

No idea mate. Just to point out that there is no benefit in sticking 10 players in the box and asking the forward players to try and walk through them, it's unnatural. Yes, we are seeing it game after game but it's down to individuals and the team to use their own skill and judgement to try and score the goal.

Not in my opinion.

The rags have practiced stuff like that since Giggs was a kid. Even simple stuff like the correct weight & direction on a ball played to a player on the edge of a packed penalty area in order to receive a return pass in a tight area & shoot, as in Hughes/Cantona, Cole/York, Giggs/Scholes/Rooney etc etc. Basic stuff like playing the ball straight at the centre of the bloke facing you, not to his left or right, so the defender can't see the ball or get a foot in without fouling the player with his back to him (how many free kicks do they get for that ?)

They know how to set up Scholes, Rooney, RVP for a shot because they practice it.

You're talking a complete different scenario there mate. Does Giggs, at 80 year old still practice his weighted balls, Scholes on how to ping a long ball? Every team, and I'm sure ours is the same, will do exactly what you are talking about there and put scenrio based training in place. You'll also have the opposite on how a defender counters these actions and learns to understand how to read a player, his moves, his turns. There is always room for improvement and I'm sure Doug (ask him about Mancini's walk through/talk through sessions) can give you an answer to what you say about the rest but in the answer to whether there is any benefit of standing 10 defenders in the box and ask the forwards to try and pass/shoot/dribble through them, then there is no benefit at all apart from learning to dive over when touched.

Maybe the you're right, the Rags are making a living out of diving.