The pull back from the byline

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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby john68 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:10 am

getdressedmctavish wrote:It was Pullis. And you can bring them out by giving them a chance by playing more expansive passes and having more men make forwaRD RUNS AND HAVING WIDE MEN TAKE ON PLAYERS EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT LOSE IT. rEMEMBER TWO FELLAS CALLED sHAUN wRIGHT pHILLIPS AND cRAIG bALLAMY? tHEY HAD TO GO. tHEY THOUGHT WHAT mANCINI WAS DOING WAS BOLLOCKS. sILLY PEOPLE.aPOLS CAPS LOL


It was O'Neill (though the who is unimportant, the what is) and he instructed his full backs to remain in defensive place and not to challenge our wide men but allow them to cross the ball freely. Crazy, but effective.
Like the many old Italian versions of catenaccio, it allows for the creation of a defensive blockade and issues the challenge that if you wish to attack effectively, you can only do so from distance. The upshot being that the defenders will trust their defence to deal with that.

If a wide man is attacking the dead ball line, and there are no people to take on. there are no defenders effectively removed from the game.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby NZBlue » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:50 am

john68 wrote:
getdressedmctavish wrote:It was Pullis. And you can bring them out by giving them a chance by playing more expansive passes and having more men make forwaRD RUNS AND HAVING WIDE MEN TAKE ON PLAYERS EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT LOSE IT. rEMEMBER TWO FELLAS CALLED sHAUN wRIGHT pHILLIPS AND cRAIG bALLAMY? tHEY HAD TO GO. tHEY THOUGHT WHAT mANCINI WAS DOING WAS BOLLOCKS. sILLY PEOPLE.aPOLS CAPS LOL


It was O'Neill (though the who is unimportant, the what is) and he instructed his full backs to remain in defensive place and not to challenge our wide men but allow them to cross the ball freely. Crazy, but effective.
Like the many old Italian versions of catenaccio, it allows for the creation of a defensive blockade and issues the challenge that if you wish to attack effectively, you can only do so from distance. The upshot being that the defenders will trust their defence to deal with that.

If a wide man is attacking the dead ball line, and there are no people to take on. there are no defenders effectively removed from the game.



Hey John,

I think it was Hodgson with WBA at The Hawthorns last season that first adopted this tactic successfully against us although I'm unsure if he used the fullbacks in the same way O'Neill did, I'd have to go back and watch that game and quite frankly I don't want to put myself through that 90mins again :-)

I do think teams adopting this tactic against us in the league is part (only a small part mind) of our issue to adapting to Champions League football. As I'm fairly new at psting here, am I going too off topic with this?
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Bridge'srightfoot » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:31 am

Don't think that it's really to do with teams parking the bus. Over the years, so many teams have parked the bus against the Rags but this tactic has still worked. It's more todo with the fact they attack with pace and purpose, they don't fuck about with it needlessly.
But it doesn't explain why the delivery is often so poor and hits the first man.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Bridge'srightfoot » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:32 am

Don't think that it's really to do with teams parking the bus. Over the years, so many teams have parked the bus against the Rags but this tactic has still worked. It's more todo with the fact they attack with pace and purpose, they don't fuck about with it needlessly. They don't allow teams to get their shape whereas we do.
But it doesn't explain why the delivery is often so poor and hits the first man.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Arjan Van Schotte » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:18 am

if we just bombed diagonal crosses into the box with aguero and tevez up front, this board would be going mental!

for me, we just have to quicken up, play the right players, get them to attack relentlessly at speed (which means the likelihood of giving the ball away increases, so what) and fucking shoot when the opportunity arises. it's not like we're not getting chances, we're just not taking them.

i'd rather we had 60% possession and won 3-1, than 75% possession and lose 1-0. Score a couple of goals and then pass it sideways all day long if you want.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:28 am

Arjan Van Schotte wrote:if we just bombed diagonal crosses into the box with aguero and tevez up front, this board would be going mental!

for me, we just have to quicken up, play the right players, get them to attack relentlessly at speed (which means the likelihood of giving the ball away increases, so what) and fucking shoot when the opportunity arises. it's not like we're not getting chances, we're just not taking them.

i'd rather we had 60% possession and won 3-1, than 75% possession and lose 1-0. Score a couple of goals and then pass it sideways all day long if you want.


The diagonal ball is not necessarily a cross into the air to midgets, it can be a ball in through and behind the centre halves for a runner.

The issue is we play so high up the field, we cant get that space or isolate defenders in the way United do. I personally think we need to find a way to tempt teams out.

We have done it un Europe as we do exactly what is described above by John, we tuck the fullbacks in and give the opposition the wings and defend from when the ball gets into the box. If we did that in the league it would leave more space to move the ball forward at a reasonable pace to allow a diagonal ball, cross or any other type of ball which can split 4 defenders rather than trying to thread it through 10

I would be quite happy to sacrifice a few goals to break this deadlock we have now reached both home and away.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Ted Hughes » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:51 am

Im_Spartacus wrote:
Arjan Van Schotte wrote:if we just bombed diagonal crosses into the box with aguero and tevez up front, this board would be going mental!

for me, we just have to quicken up, play the right players, get them to attack relentlessly at speed (which means the likelihood of giving the ball away increases, so what) and fucking shoot when the opportunity arises. it's not like we're not getting chances, we're just not taking them.

i'd rather we had 60% possession and won 3-1, than 75% possession and lose 1-0. Score a couple of goals and then pass it sideways all day long if you want.


The diagonal ball is not necessarily a cross into the air to midgets, it can be a ball in through and behind the centre halves for a runner.

The issue is we play so high up the field, we cant get that space or isolate defenders in the way United do. I personally think we need to find a way to tempt teams out.

We have done it un Europe as we do exactly what is described above by John, we tuck the fullbacks in and give the opposition the wings and defend from when the ball gets into the box. If we did that in the league it would leave more space to move the ball forward at a reasonable pace to allow a diagonal ball, cross or any other type of ball which can split 4 defenders rather than trying to thread it through 10

I would be quite happy to sacrifice a few goals to break this deadlock we have now reached both home and away.


The surprising thing to me is that recently, when in crossing positions, the midgets have actually been crossing the ball to the far post, in the air, even though they know that the only option is a fellow midget, who won't be there. You would think there would be an accent on playing midget football when a midget team is selected but no.

Barca play that diagonal ball over the top to runners all the time btw, we don't & if we do, we overhit it.

What amazes me is that so many people in football have not sussed out the method used by the rags so often & so successfully over the years & A: defended it better & B: emulated it. It's so fucking simple & they keep doing it to us.

There is an utterly ridiculous assertion that in 90 mins football, we don't get the opportunity to do the same because teams are so well drilled against us. This is utter, complete bollocks. Where I sit, I see people like Zabba receive the ball & shout 'PUT IT IN NOW' but no, take a touch, look up, scratch arse, pass it back to Yaya. I could put a decent ball in given the same time so I'm fucking sure they could. It has not been worked on well enough.

We have absolutely shitloads of opportunities to get balls into the right area 1st time & NEVER do it, we have nobody making the right runs (there should be a near post runner, far post runner & a man hanging for the pull back plus a runner from midfield arriving on the edge of the box ala Ajax v City.

And as for tempting teams out of the box, just an actual desire to shoot means they have to come out to stop it. That makes space for a pass. If we never set up anyone to shoot, they can just block the bloke with the ball & then go back in.

Real Madrid showed at the Bernabau against us, how that game falls on its arse if top players are well enough drilled & have instructions to shoot whenever possible.

If we do all this stuff & finish goalless; well played to the oppo. We don't.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Arjan Van Schotte » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:28 pm

oh i don't disagree with a diagonal ball behind the defenders - but to do that there has to be space to run into - which again means moving the ball quicker out of defence.

all it needs is lots of movement and the ball played quickly, i honestly think we'd destroy teams regularly if we did this, but it would be at the expense of the odd goal and a bit of possession.

i think we can all see this, but bobby aint gonna change.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby john68 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:47 pm

Arjan,
You and others are entirely right about speed and ball behind the defence which is something we actually do. It is wrong to suggest we don't.

You are also entirely right when you say we need space behind the defence to run into. The problem we are encountering is that opponents are immediately retreating leaving absolutely no space. Reading reverted to an immediate 10 man defence (inc keeper) and Sunderland at time pulled everyone back.

The answer is usually to play the ball in front of the defence thus pulling them about. Now we are encountering an absolute refusal by opponents to come out. They merely slide across blocking angles and creating walls in front of us.

The problem is not so much our speed of attack, but their speed in setting up a defence. When opponents refuse to come out and play, we are pretty well fucked.

The rags weakness in defence offers teams a chance to attack them and the rags benefit from the space that offers them.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Bridge'srightfoot » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:06 pm

john68 wrote:Arjan,
    You and others are entirely right about speed and ball behind the defence which is something we actually do. It is wrong to suggest we don't.

    You are also entirely right when you say we need space behind the defence to run into. The problem we are encountering is that opponents are immediately retreating leaving absolutely no space. Reading reverted to an immediate 10 man defence (inc keeper) and Sunderland at time pulled everyone back.

    The answer is usually to play the ball in front of the defence thus pulling them about. Now we are encountering an absolute refusal by opponents to come out. They merely slide across blocking angles and creating walls in front of us.

    The problem is not so much our speed of attack, but their speed in setting up a defence. When opponents refuse to come out and play, we are pretty well fucked.

The rags weakness in defence offers teams a chance to attack them and the rags benefit from the space that offers them.

Just not true, how many teams over the years havevparked the bus against United? So many yet they seem to nearly always find a way through. It's beacause we attack so bloody slowly and allow teams to get their shape.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby john68 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:20 pm

TBH Bridges, I suppose I could have expected you to use your rag football heroes as a foil, Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about what they do and never have.
Maybe we should sign Cuntona, Scoles and Giggs to keep you happy.

I am merely telling you what is happening now to City, if you don't wish to accept that, that is your choice. Beyond that, I can't be arsed.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Bridge'srightfoot » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:24 pm

john68 wrote:TBH Bridges, I suppose I could have expected you to use your rag football heroes as a foil, Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about what they do and never have.
Maybe we should sign Cuntona, Scoles and Giggs to keep you happy.

I am merely telling you what is happening now to City, if you don't wish to accept that, that is your choice. Beyond that, I can't be arsed.

Oh real mature, real mature.
You're pathetic. Did I once say I loved the Rags? Several people here have said some of their play is bloody effective, and there is no reason why we can't do the same. We're both competing for the league, it's hardly ridiculous to compare us to them.
So many teams have parked the bus against them and they find a way through. You're mentality is there is nothign we can do about it. Bull Shit.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby john68 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:31 pm

Bridge'srightfoot wrote:
john68 wrote:TBH Bridges, I suppose I could have expected you to use your rag football heroes as a foil, Personally, I couldn't give a fuck about what they do and never have.
Maybe we should sign Cuntona, Scoles and Giggs to keep you happy.

I am merely telling you what is happening now to City, if you don't wish to accept that, that is your choice. Beyond that, I can't be arsed.

Oh real mature, real mature.
You're pathetic. Did I once say I loved the Rags? Several people here have said some of their play is bloody effective, and there is no reason why we can't do the same. We're both competing for the league, it's hardly ridiculous to compare us to them.
So many teams have parked the bus against them and they find a way through. You're mentality is there is nothign we can do about it. Bull Shit.


OK! Thanks. My 1st wife held the same view of me...you would get on well with her. BTW, she was wrong...:-)
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Blue Since 76 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:51 pm

NZBlue wrote:I think the main difference is the way teams set up against us and them.

United play a game of percentages which works in England as the majority of managers are tactically inept but no longer works against well managed teams on the contenient. .


Whereas our style has terrorised Europe...

I'd say it's more likely the tactically inept managers in England allowed us to win the league last season, but thanks to the actions of a few of the brighter ones, the rest have now worked out how to get at least a point off us. Doesn't always work (Reading) but it's more effective than getting 4 or 5 put past you
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Blue Since 76 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:55 pm

john68 wrote:
Martin O'Neill worked that out last year with success. Basically, ignore what City are doing and get yer arses back in front of you own goal line as fast as you can. If you remember the excellent Chuckle 1 analysis, O'Neill even gave up defending the flanks and allowed us to cross into their box unchallenged.

Under those circumstances, it is easier to get back and defend than it is to effectively attack it. The only way is to draw out the defence to create space but if a defence refuses to be drawn out, you can't force em out. Maybe by the scruff of the neck?


So do we just play for 38 draws, or do we try and find another way to beat a team with no ambition? I agree that teams know they can score against the rags so trying for a 3-3 is probably better than trying to hold out for a 0-0. Teams don't do that to us, but if we don't find a way to beat them, we'll end up mid table.

Maybe we should go back to 3 at the back to at least give other teams a clue how to score
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby john68 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:14 pm

Blue Since 76 wrote:
So do we just play for 38 draws, or do we try and find another way to beat a team with no ambition? I agree that teams know they can score against the rags so trying for a 3-3 is probably better than trying to hold out for a 0-0. Teams don't do that to us, but if we don't find a way to beat them, we'll end up mid table.

Maybe we should go back to 3 at the back to at least give other teams a clue how to score


I never for one moment suggested that we play for draws. Nor did i suggest that we could do nothing about our problem. You would be wrong if you considered I did.

We are the architects of our own problem. The potential we have to destroy teams as we did at the start of last season still remains and other coaches are aware of just how good we are. That early start when we swept all before us was awesome but it was obvious that some good football brains would at some point work out ways to stop or slow us. It's the way football is.
We now have to find a way to overcome it. Easier said than done.
You may well be right about the 3 at the back as an option in some games. In fact the more options we have in our locker to change our strategies during games. It is still early days in our team's evolution towards greatness. Those teams we are trying to emulate have had much longer to develop.
What is happening with us right now, may be uncomfortable and we may not like it but it's the nature of the game.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Beefymcfc » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:19 pm

Teams like the Rags use their wingersto get behind and cut-in, looking for the forwards to put it in the back of the net.

Name me a winger at City?
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby zuricity » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:27 pm

Blue Since 76 wrote:
So do we just play for 38 draws, or do we try and find another way to beat a team with no ambition? I agree that teams know they can score against the rags so trying for a 3-3 is probably better than trying to hold out for a 0-0. Teams don't do that to us, but if we don't find a way to beat them, we'll end up mid table.

Maybe we should go back to 3 at the back to at least give other teams a clue how to score



i'm refering to J68 ref to MO'N here .... bloody iphone !
yeah the great Martin O'Neill!

He will be sacked soon. his record is marginally better than his predecessor.

Reading got lucky as did Sunderland( twice now at their place) .

Van Persil got a defection against City and did sod all.

City are creating good chances and fluffing some of them at the moment, it will come good.
Last edited by zuricity on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Mase » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:29 pm

Beefymcfc wrote:
Name me a winger at City?


Scott Sinclair.
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Re: The pull back from the byline

Postby Beefymcfc » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:30 pm

Mase wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:
Name me a winger at City?


Scott Sinclair.

As I said, name a winger at City?
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