What's the real problem?

[dazby]

How did that Chilean guy go at Barca? Is he getting games? Is he doing well? I understand he got injured pretty early into his Barca career but he must be playing now.

[tikatakamcfc]

So what you're saying is we have a much better winning record when dzeko comes on late than when he starts?

I agree super sub!

No. Im saying that starting Aguero/Tevez is not so lethal as it seems, since 6 out of 9 times we went to 70th minute having a draw or being behind, according to stats.

[Cocacolajojo1]

Here's a little stat that for all of you, regarding our strikers.
It seems that Aguero/Tevez partnership is not providing us as much as it seemed, to me at least.

Someone should maybe analyse Tevez/Dzeko and Aguero/Dzeko starts to see what happens.

What does wins deserved mean?

Won matches that a player had some kind of direct influence, like goals, assists. Not wins that were achieved when he wasnt on the pitch.

Ok so for example, in the game vs Southhampton Tevez put us up 1-0, but that doesn't count because then they scored two more and Nasri was the one who scored the winning goal. Not critizising you, just wondering if I understand your way of doing the stats.

I count it like this.
It counts for him (Tevez), under "Deserved wins" but I dont count it to Tevez/Aguero duo, since Aguero was on the pitch for 14 minutes, while Edin is the one that finished the rest of the game, he and Tevez scored, so him and Tevez deserved that win for us.

The way I see it. But its open for debate, no offense taken.

The main reason I took the time to look into these stats is ... I was so annoyed after QPR. Overall opinion about Tev/Aguero is that when they start, we basically always win.. but somehow I cant remember that last time we had comfortable win when they start..its always down to the last 10 minutes, or last few minutes, but never easy.

So it turns out that out of 9 times they started together, only 3 times we won with those two actually playing together, while the other 6 matches (red colored numbers) we either didnt won (2 times) or we won with different partnership on the pitch (3 times Aguero/Dzeko and 1 time Tevez/Dzeko).

Fair enough. I'll think about it and get back to you. This is pretty complex stuff that you've tried to measure, so cudos. I just don't know if I agree with your principles of measurement. But as long as I can't come up with anything better, you're right.

[Beefymcfc]

I put the Aguero/Tevez partnership failure down to the way they both play. They both like to come deep and also like to run with the ball at the defence which leads the oppo to collapse their players into the box when dropping off. This leads to over-congestion and makes it very hard to score through the bodies in the way.

With Dzeko we tend to try and feed the ball through with him hanging off the last man which opens the defence up somewhat and it's usually, when he has come on as sub, when we are chasing the game and dragging players all over the pitch.

[Cit.revenge]

I put the Aguero/Tevez partnership failure down to the way they both play. They both like to come deep and also like to run with the ball at the defence which leads the oppo to collapse their players into the box when dropping off. This leads to over-congestion and makes it very hard to score through the bodies in the way.

With Dzeko we tend to try and feed the ball through with him hanging off the last man which opens the defence up somewhat and it's usually, when he has come on as sub, when we are chasing the game and dragging players all over the pitch.

Did we win 4 games in row with Dzeko start them and he score in 3 of that 4 games, so sub label should peal off by now , I think we have problem this year with delivery, and with i must say problem us a team we dont pass for tap in, in 50 % player will shoot not pass for easy goal ,and i mean almost all of them, even Silva .And lack of form but with all that we are still in fight and we have few less points then last years this time i think , only problem lucky fuckers do not lose ,and we really play like on crack that game with QPR, no will , no idea , and missing what we must score.

[Rag_hater]

We have created as many chances as any top 6 side except spuds who we have one less than half way through the season,so this cumbersome midfield seems to be doing its job.
The imagined problem if any would be the strikers not converting the chances,but I would bet that's not the case at the end of the season.
FFS 45 goals in 24 ain't to shabby.

[Ted Hughes]

Tevez & Aguero are the only striking partnership.

They are the only two players who pass regularly to each other. In recent times, Aguero & Dzeko have occasionally showed signs of an understanding but so far Tevez & Dzeko are just two geezers who happen to be wearing the same colour shirt, they have no understanding whatsoever (& Mario rarely passed to anybody & they didn't pass to him).

Some of the interplay between those two last season was up there with Barca or indeed Argentina.

This season, the whole club has been less sharp & all of the strikers especially.

[Dunnylad]

Tevez & Aguero are the only striking partnership.

They are the only two players who pass regularly to each other. In recent times, Aguero & Dzeko have occasionally showed signs of an understanding but so far Tevez & Dzeko are just two geezers who happen to be wearing the same colour shirt, they have no understanding whatsoever (& Mario rarely passed to anybody & they didn't pass to him).

Some of the interplay between those two last season was up there with Barca or indeed Argentina.

This season, the whole club has been less sharp & all of the strikers especially.

This ^ Tevez & Aguero are the best partnership we have, but both are blowing cold at the moment - Tevez just doesn't seem as trim as at the start of the season & Aguero hasn't yet found his feet after injury - if they weren't world class I'd worry, although its the gap to the rags that means we can't afford a strike force that has gone off the boil - as the options we have equally seem to be off the boil as well! Would like to see us pick up a natural goalscorer, but people better than I will know who that should be

[Beefymcfc]

Tevez & Aguero are the only striking partnership.

They are the only two players who pass regularly to each other. In recent times, Aguero & Dzeko have occasionally showed signs of an understanding but so far Tevez & Dzeko are just two geezers who happen to be wearing the same colour shirt, they have no understanding whatsoever (& Mario rarely passed to anybody & they didn't pass to him).

Some of the interplay between those two last season was up there with Barca or indeed Argentina.

This season, the whole club has been less sharp & all of the strikers especially.

This ^ Tevez & Aguero are the best partnership we have, but both are blowing cold at the moment - Tevez just doesn't seem as trim as at the start of the season & Aguero hasn't yet found his feet after injury - if they weren't world class I'd worry, although its the gap to the rags that means we can't afford a strike force that has gone off the boil - as the options we have equally seem to be off the boil as well! Would like to see us pick up a natural goalscorer, but people better than I will know who that should be

Just to throw it out there, since we went with Aguero and Tevez in the game we lost against Sunderland we've started Dzeko in every game and won. That is until the last game where we started Aguero and Tevez.

I feel it's wrong to just say that Aguero and Tevez are our best partnership as it has to be down to individuals form at the time. We won 6 on the bounce with Dzeko starting. Does that not say anything?

[Ted Hughes]

Tevez & Aguero are the only striking partnership.

They are the only two players who pass regularly to each other. In recent times, Aguero & Dzeko have occasionally showed signs of an understanding but so far Tevez & Dzeko are just two geezers who happen to be wearing the same colour shirt, they have no understanding whatsoever (& Mario rarely passed to anybody & they didn't pass to him).

Some of the interplay between those two last season was up there with Barca or indeed Argentina.

This season, the whole club has been less sharp & all of the strikers especially.

This ^ Tevez & Aguero are the best partnership we have, but both are blowing cold at the moment - Tevez just doesn't seem as trim as at the start of the season & Aguero hasn't yet found his feet after injury - if they weren't world class I'd worry, although its the gap to the rags that means we can't afford a strike force that has gone off the boil - as the options we have equally seem to be off the boil as well! Would like to see us pick up a natural goalscorer, but people better than I will know who that should be

Just to throw it out there, since we went with Aguero and Tevez in the game we lost against Sunderland we've started Dzeko in every game and won. That is until the last game where we started Aguero and Tevez.

I feel it's wrong to just say that Aguero and Tevez are our best partnership as it has to be down to individuals form at the time. We won 6 on the bounce with Dzeko starting. Does that not say anything?

That's true enough but I don't think there are any other partnerships so far, just individuals.

Those two play together, the rest don't.

And we tend to win more games when they start together, than with other pairings.

Imo, they have been nowhere near it for most of this season but the rest have been even worse.

[Beefymcfc]

Tevez & Aguero are the only striking partnership.

They are the only two players who pass regularly to each other. In recent times, Aguero & Dzeko have occasionally showed signs of an understanding but so far Tevez & Dzeko are just two geezers who happen to be wearing the same colour shirt, they have no understanding whatsoever (& Mario rarely passed to anybody & they didn't pass to him).

Some of the interplay between those two last season was up there with Barca or indeed Argentina.

This season, the whole club has been less sharp & all of the strikers especially.

This ^ Tevez & Aguero are the best partnership we have, but both are blowing cold at the moment - Tevez just doesn't seem as trim as at the start of the season & Aguero hasn't yet found his feet after injury - if they weren't world class I'd worry, although its the gap to the rags that means we can't afford a strike force that has gone off the boil - as the options we have equally seem to be off the boil as well! Would like to see us pick up a natural goalscorer, but people better than I will know who that should be

Just to throw it out there, since we went with Aguero and Tevez in the game we lost against Sunderland we've started Dzeko in every game and won. That is until the last game where we started Aguero and Tevez.

I feel it's wrong to just say that Aguero and Tevez are our best partnership as it has to be down to individuals form at the time. We won 6 on the bounce with Dzeko starting. Does that not say anything?

That's true enough but I don't think there are any other partnerships so far, just individuals.

Those two play together, the rest don't.

And we tend to win more games when they start together, than with other pairings.

Imo, they have been nowhere near it for most of this season but the rest have been even worse.

I don't think we've seen any real partnerships this season due to one thing or the other but the Tevez/Dzeko one seems to be the best combination of late. At least our players are starting to interact and I've noticed that we are now actively looking for Dzeko rather than looking and choosing to pass elsewhere.

[zuricity]

Just to throw it out there, since we went with Aguero and Tevez in the game we lost against Sunderland we've started Dzeko in every game and won. That is until the last game where we started Aguero and Tevez.

I feel it's wrong to just say that Aguero and Tevez are our best partnership as it has to be down to individuals form at the time. We won 6 on the bounce with Dzeko starting. Does that not say anything?

yes it does Beefy... we should start edin and kun . David should be told to pass to the player in the best position and not always to kun

[Ted Hughes]

I'd rather see all 3 plus Silva & no Nasri.

[Lev Bronstein]

The real problem is that we haven't up-graded the squad enough from last year. (Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with Nastasic, and getting happier with Garcia. But, it's become obvious that it was the attack that needed attention). If you want to stay at the top you have to constantly look to improve - and yes, you do change a winning team.

[Hazy2]

QPR was another game we failed to break them down, Clint Hill, Nelson should be put to the sword, our front men spend so much time outside the box back to goal we are never on the half clearance or punishing crap teams like WHUFC QPR, Sunderland, even Rafas 1st Game Chelsea should ha e been battered. We also have a nobody prepared to have a pop from outside the box. Oh and Sergio is a shadow of last season to date. Getting the job done is what the rags are doing, we need a win tomorow and a collapse.

[Im_Spartacus]

I know its not really practical with mario gone, but I still cant understand why we never played all 3 with Tevez and Aguero providing the pace and industry running the channels / wings.

Its not necessarily the pace of the players either, but the willingness to carry the ball at a defence which both kun and tevez are prepared to do.

That has seemed an obvious answer to the pace issue to me since last summer, but I dont recall we have ever actually started a game like that.

[bigblue]

I know its not really practical with mario gone, but I still cant understand why we never played all 3 with Tevez and Aguero providing the pace and industry running the channels / wings.

Its not necessarily the pace of the players either, but the willingness to carry the ball at a defence which both kun and tevez are prepared to do.

That has seemed an obvious answer to the pace issue to me since last summer, but I dont recall we have ever actually started a game like that.

Definitely think thats a good idea, especially since Tevez and Aguero already like to drop into the midfield and put in a shift trying to defend. Target man up-top, industrious pacey runners who can cut in and finish, and the creative talent/power behind them. Something like:

-------------Milner/Barry
------Silva/Nasri-------Yaya
Aguero---------Dzeko--------Tevez

I think a big problem in our play is the lack of the ability to quickly change the tempo. This is what made the 1970 Brazil team so good. They could control the ball and almost lull the other team to sleep with monotonous short passes. Then, just when the other team started to switch off, they would up the tempo from an off the ball run or unexpected dribble past a few players. The whole team that would suddenly press forward, catching the other team off guard and making them panic in the process.

We have the 1st part down extremely well. We can out pass a team and make them run in circles all day. We tire them out trying to get the ball back, as can be seen in our high % of late goals. But what if a team doesn't try/want to get the ball back and just pack it in? They put all 11 players in front of the penalty box and watch us pass back and forth all day. Thats when we need to be able to collectively up the tempo at the flick of the switch and cause confusion. The rags are quite good at using fast wingers and crosses to do this. But we could be so much better with the threat of Aguero/Tevez beating a man or running off the ball, Yaya powering through, or Dzeko getting on a cross. We just need the whole team to press forward instead of 1-2 players, while the rest stick to the same slow tempo.

[Swales4ever]

Yet again, clueless manager aside, the SOLE problem is that:
Aguero is yet to become as clinical as Pablito Rossi and Dzeko(Mario) as Ruud van Nistelrboy.
Browse the extended highlights of each game where we have dropped points and try to figure out the outcome with two cooler strikers.

It's a learning curve

[Edd209]

<null>

Great shout. I agree that if you can stop Silva you stop any penetration thus rendering the front two to scraps and forcing things that lead down dead end streets. We need width. We had a bit in Johnson last year but I think we made the right choice in selling him as I don't think he is a champions league player. Sinclair has not taken his chances although they have been limited. I know Bobbi wants quick play through the second phase but that momentum slows if silva gets shut down as most teams are doing. On a positive note we are getting good width from our full backs. But I think unless Nasari pulls his finger out and indeed takes the load from silva we will continue to struggle to break sitting teams down.

[dazby]

The real problem is those rag fuckers keep winning. Simple.