Trajectory

Here is the place to talk about all things city and football!

Re: Trajectory

Postby Tokyo Blue » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:49 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:The wild card is HRH though. If he suddenly decides ' Sod this, I want the Champions League NOW ' & thinks Mourinho will deliver it, the whole plan will have to continue in the background whilst the 1st team does its own thing.

I'm sure the rest of the bosses would much rather continue on the path we have set, but you can never rule out what an owner may decide.

He has shown zero indication of doing that or being a "wild card". The way the gobby little tool that ended up at Portsmouth was sidelined sharpish post-takeover suggests he operates in a rather different way. The plans for the Academy prove similar. If you are paying that sum of money for an Academy, you want it to do the job it was set up to do. It shows patience. It does not show impetuosity or unpredictability.

The media may trot out their cliched view that all rich owners are unrealistic and overly demanding but that does not make it true. While you can't rule anything out 100% in this world, it would be a huge shock if the owner did anything other than let his people do their jobs.
Your right leg I like; I've got nothing against your right leg. The trouble is neither have you.
Tokyo Blue
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Bert Trautmann's Neck
 
Posts: 12339
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:33 am

Re: Trajectory

Postby Mikhail Chigorin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Although our form has been arguably indifferent this season, the irony is that if results had been different in one or two games, or so, the gap between ourselves and the Scum could have been only one point, with all to play for.

The games I'm particularly thinking about are the derby at home (if we'd drawn instead of losing), Sunderland away (which we should have won) and QPR away (which we should also have won).

If those games had gone differently, the title race would have been wide open, in spite of how consistent the Scum appear to have been this season.
Mikhail Chigorin
Shaun Goater's 103 Goals
 
Posts: 7933
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:37 pm
Location: Lost in the variations of the King's Gambit
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Bert Trautmann

Re: Trajectory

Postby Im_Spartacus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:22 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
I agree with him that we should have the best squad, why shouldn't we ?

But I also agree with Khaldoon that we should be signing younger players heading toward their peak rather than players peaking now & heading back down. Plus we have to assess what we have somewhere & make a plan, or we are just heading for a situation like we had with RSC & Adebayor, but much much worse. Even Real & Barca move players on. We have to do the same; we can't just stockpile loads of unused, huge money players whilst we sign others for huge money, like Bob wants to do.

The rumours that I've read suggest that the longterm plan is to have 4 or 5 superstars & the rest of the squad built from the academy (which will be trained in a basic 4-3-3 inspite of what Bob & some of his cheerleaders say; we are already doing it now it's on the OS as the stated academy system for young kids!)

I like that if it happens & in the longrun, it should hopefully make us immune to managers & their egoes, & like at Barca, they would just be custodians of the 1st team rather than dictators like Ferguson (& Bob tried to be).

I don't see how Mourinho would fit that at all.

I agree completely as we have both discussed before about the long term philosophy. But Mancini really doesn't seem interested in the clubs efforts in that direction, he wants it now, which is understandable, but what im pointing out is that there is all this outcry about mourinho only staying a few years before falling out with the board when mancini has exactly the same approach as Jose - spend spend spend until you win - if you dont win, but worse, bob seems to want to abdicate responsibility for his own shortcomings and blame it on the club not spending - as evidenced by, and I guarantee these words will be spoken in the weeks to come "ees difficult when we sell striker and not replace mario" - the same mario who contributed a sum total of fuck all this season.

when it all boils down to it, they are similar in many ways, bobby is just an inferior coach and motivator to Jose.

I don't think mourinho would fit our criteria, but for the exact same reasons, I think I'm coming to the conclusion that we have the poor mans mourinho and if the club have a choice of keeping Mancini, or going with mourinho, they will go with Mourinho, as they aren't much different, but mourinho would likely bring more success with the resources we have
Im_Spartacus
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Denis Law's Backheel
 
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:41 pm
Location: Abu Dhabi
Supporter of: .

Re: Trajectory

Postby Im_Spartacus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Peter Doherty (AGAIG) wrote:Spot on! Mancini will be here next season as an upgrade is unavailable and thankfully Mourinho doesn't fit in with the way the club is developing.


But the point is, neither does Mancini.....his spat with marwood showed perfectly adequately that his solution to everything is spend

He has no intention of managing a team to honours by guile or tactics, he just wants to buy it. If a player doesnt do well, he wants to replace them rather than coach them, he wants to publically criticise, he wants to run players up the wrong way. In the current climate that spend your way yo success ain't gonna happen on the scale that'l maybe Mancini thinks it is
Im_Spartacus
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Denis Law's Backheel
 
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:41 pm
Location: Abu Dhabi
Supporter of: .

Re: Trajectory

Postby Scatman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:29 pm

Then rather than replace Mancini with Mourinho, if they are to replace Mancini, they ought to do it with somebody who shares the club's ideology and vision. Someone like bacon in the 90s or Rodgers early doors before he realised his youngsters are all shit.
Scatman
Dickov's Injury Time Equaliser
 
Posts: 4523
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:06 am
Location: Manchester

Re: Trajectory

Postby Im_Spartacus » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:42 pm

Scatman wrote:Then rather than replace Mancini with Mourinho, if they are to replace Mancini, they ought to do it with somebody who shares the club's ideology and vision. Someone like bacon in the 90s or Rodgers early doors before he realised his youngsters are all shit.


Absolutely agreed. AVB? Laudrup? Solskjaer haha?
Im_Spartacus
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Denis Law's Backheel
 
Posts: 9579
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:41 pm
Location: Abu Dhabi
Supporter of: .

Re: Trajectory

Postby carl_feedthegoat » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:37 pm

Fuck the trajectory ,all I want to see is for us to just start showing some gonads , from manager to players.
THEY SAY SWEARING IS DUE TO A LIMITED VOCABULARY. I KNOW THOUSANDS OF WORDS, BUT I STILL PREFER "FUCK OFF" TO "GO AWAY"
carl_feedthegoat
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Anna Connell's Vision
 
Posts: 32250
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:51 am
Supporter of: Man City

Re: Trajectory

Postby bigblue » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:36 pm

When people talk about trajectory (movement over time), the key word is perspective.

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
Fuck all
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League

In 2 years we have won more than in the last 40. Let me say that again, in 2 years we have won more than in the last 40.

Many people seem to have the belief that our team should progress like so:

Not win shit for 39 years
Year 1: Win the cup
Year 2: Win the League by a small margin
Year 3: Dominate the league
Year 4: Dominate the league
Year 5: Dominate the league
Year 6: Dominate the league
Year 7: Dominate the league
.....

A large reason hat this is the ideal "trajectory" is that we are stuck comparing ourselves to the scum. After waiting for decades watching them win everything, we believe that this is now our turn to create a dynasty for years to come, just like the rags in the 90's. The main difference is that the rags were able to create a monopoly over money and ability to bring in top talent for years.

While the league is still extremely top heavy, the weight is dispersed between a few clubs with billions in spending power. The competition for the #1 spot is extremely high and we aren't the only billionaire funded club on the block. So to expect us to coast to the league title this year and in the near future is a self-imposed myth that will never happen (agree with Doug 100%). The "trajectory" of a 133 year old organization should not be measured in 2-3 year chunks. Even if we don't win the league this year (or even next year as well) our momentum over the past 5-10 years is positive.

Take a deep breath. Relax.
User avatar
bigblue
Paul Power's Tash
 
Posts: 10993
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:11 pm
Supporter of: Manchester's Only
My favourite player is: Yaya

Re: Trajectory

Postby sandman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:49 pm

In my opinion it should be...

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League
2013: Get out of the group stages of the Champs league OR win the Premier league
2014: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2015: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2016: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2017: Have won the Champions League at least once by now.....
User avatar
sandman
Rosler's Grandad Bombed The Swamp
 
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:34 pm
Supporter of: City

Re: Trajectory

Postby bigblue » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:57 pm

sandman wrote:In my opinion it should be...

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League
2013: Get out of the group stages of the Champs league OR win the Premier league
2014: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2015: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2016: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2017: Have won the Champions League at least once by now.....


Edit: I misread, so corrected my response.

You obviously do not understand that we are competing against other teams who have a similar amount of resources. Thinking we are supposed to win the chumps league at least once in the next 5 years is madness. Thinking that we should now win the league almost every year is insanity. I'm glad you're not head of strategic planning for us because this is a fucking mess.
Last edited by bigblue on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bigblue
Paul Power's Tash
 
Posts: 10993
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:11 pm
Supporter of: Manchester's Only
My favourite player is: Yaya

Re: Trajectory

Postby zuricity » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:03 pm

carl_feedthegoat wrote:Fuck the trajectory ,all I want to see is for us to just start showing some gonads , from manager to players.


Excellent Carl, concise, accurate and straight to the heart the matter. Sure as hell improves on the regurgitated waffle .
zuricity
Allison's Big Fat Cigar
 
Posts: 18411
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: Zuerich,ch

Re: Trajectory

Postby Socrates » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:11 pm

bigblue wrote:When people talk about trajectory (movement over time), the key word is perspective.

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
Fuck all
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League

In 2 years we have won more than in the last 40. Let me say that again, in 2 years we have won more than in the last 40.

Many people seem to have the belief that our team should progress like so:

Not win shit for 39 years
Year 1: Win the cup
Year 2: Win the League by a small margin
Year 3: Dominate the league
Year 4: Dominate the league
Year 5: Dominate the league
Year 6: Dominate the league
Year 7: Dominate the league
.....

A large reason hat this is the ideal "trajectory" is that we are stuck comparing ourselves to the scum. After waiting for decades watching them win everything, we believe that this is now our turn to create a dynasty for years to come, just like the rags in the 90's. The main difference is that the rags were able to create a monopoly over money and ability to bring in top talent for years.

While the league is still extremely top heavy, the weight is dispersed between a few clubs with billions in spending power. The competition for the #1 spot is extremely high and we aren't the only billionaire funded club on the block. So to expect us to coast to the league title this year and in the near future is a self-imposed myth that will never happen (agree with Doug 100%). The "trajectory" of a 133 year old organization should not be measured in 2-3 year chunks. Even if we don't win the league this year (or even next year as well) our momentum over the past 5-10 years is positive.

Take a deep breath. Relax.


Summary: We should be happy we are in the mix and going to win our share of trophies for the foreseeable future. JF likes this!
Manchester : New York : Melbourne : Yokohama
User avatar
Socrates
Pellegrini's Hoodie
 
Posts: 22681
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:08 am
Supporter of: st marks (gorton)

Re: Trajectory

Postby sandman » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:41 pm

bigblue wrote:
sandman wrote:In my opinion it should be...

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League
2013: Get out of the group stages of the Champs league OR win the Premier league
2014: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2015: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2016: Do well in the Champs league OR win the league
2017: Have won the Champions League at least once by now.....


Edit: I misread, so corrected my response.

You obviously do not understand that we are competing against other teams who have a similar amount of resources. Thinking we are supposed to win the chumps league at least once in the next 5 years is madness. Thinking that we should now win the league almost every year is insanity. I'm glad you're not head of strategic planning for us because this is a fucking mess.


I understand exactly what we are up against, I'm glad you're not head of strategic planning for us because your lack of ambition is pathetic.

You obviously havent read what I wrote properly, I would be happy not to win the league but do well in the champions league as that is the next big goal, I am not necessarily saying we need to win it straight away but as that is the next big goal we should be aiming to win it it within the next 5 years or else what is the point in being in it. If we are knocked out early then we have one less competition to focus on and therefore should be going all out to win the Premier League.
User avatar
sandman
Rosler's Grandad Bombed The Swamp
 
Posts: 3552
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:34 pm
Supporter of: City

Re: Trajectory

Postby Lee_R » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:10 pm

I see a future where we bring in managers to coach the team we have and win games not to decide specifically who we sign. That will be the directors jobs. To make sure we produce young players and to sign the odd player who will improve us. Therefore if Mancini cant win trophies with a quality squad then someone else will be given pretty much the same pool of players to do the job with the odd additions. Gone are the days of wholesale changes and managers demands imo.
User avatar
Lee_R
Joe Hart's 29 Clean Sheets
 
Posts: 5869
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:04 pm
Location: Buxton.. formerly Kippax Steet
Supporter of: MCFC
My favourite player is: David White

Re: Trajectory

Postby Dunnylad » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:24 pm

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:Although our form has been arguably indifferent this season, the irony is that if results had been different in one or two games, or so, the gap between ourselves and the Scum could have been only one point, with all to play for.

The games I'm particularly thinking about are the derby at home (if we'd drawn instead of losing), Sunderland away (which we should have won) and QPR away (which we should also have won).

If those games had gone differently, the title race would have been wide open, in spite of how consistent the Scum appear to have been this season.


Or to take it another way, our form hasn't been that bad, it's just the rags form has been even better. In fact for the rest of the league it's pretty boring as you could have predicted the top two at the start of this season and god forbid at the start of next.
User avatar
Dunnylad
Kinky's Mazy Dribbles
 
Posts: 2047
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:21 pm
Location: Darlington
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: Georgi Kinkladze

Re: Trajectory

Postby bigblue » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:32 pm

sandman wrote:I understand exactly what we are up against, I'm glad you're not head of strategic planning for us because your lack of ambition is pathetic.

You obviously havent read what I wrote properly, I would be happy not to win the league but do well in the champions league as that is the next big goal, I am not necessarily saying we need to win it straight away but as that is the next big goal we should be aiming to win it it within the next 5 years or else what is the point in being in it. If we are knocked out early then we have one less competition to focus on and therefore should be going all out to win the Premier League.


Honestly, I would love to win a champions league in the next 5 years but 10 years would be more realistic. For City to sustainably compete with the big boys for decades to come; just as much (if not more) progress needs to be made off the field. That is the nature of the modern game. As long as we are up there and competing for honors every year we are good for our on the pitch performance.

Off the pitch, we need to:

1. Develop a better global presence and fan base to finance City for years to come. The Sheik isn't going to be writing personal checks for the next 10 years.

2. See academy talent actually break into the first team and hopefully have a home grown player become a "world class" performer. Future success will always be a gamble if our squad is determined by our ability to purchase in the market.

3. Instill a common culture in every employee at City. This doesn't have to be the stereotypical "win at all costs" rag culture that most people associate with success. It should be a more inherently Manchester City like culture that includes winning on the pitch, but also a strong "giving back to the community" focus and all inclusive, welcoming approach to everyone. This is probably where we have had the most success to date, but it won't be complete until every player join City knows how they must act before they join us (just like players know the culture of the rags, Madrid, Barca, or other top teams).

4. Establish a strong lobbying presence in the FA, UEFA, and FIFA. While we can always cry foul (and rightfully so) at the undue influence of the current G14, if we are going to compete we need to join/beat them at their own game. If we are successful in this, it will no longer be City being singled out by the governing bodies as ruining football, but praised as a model for positive development and for our efforts in the community. If we are smart, we will use our lobbying presence to make football more equitable for all teams involved. Not only will this boost our "all-inclusive" image, but it will hopefully create more competition for our rivals to deal with.

So like I said, it's all about perspective. You can measure trajectory by a single metric (trophies), or you can see the larger picture and all the factors that go into being able to sustainably win trophies over an extended period of time.
Last edited by bigblue on Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bigblue
Paul Power's Tash
 
Posts: 10993
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:11 pm
Supporter of: Manchester's Only
My favourite player is: Yaya

Re: Trajectory

Postby Beefymcfc » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:39 pm

My view is that I've never really like Mancini but he's done a cracking job. FA Cup and Premier League within a couple of years were wonderful and cannot be described in mere words. Following the Premier League win we should've strengthened with at least 2 quality players, not lose 2 before losing another in the Jan window. He was let down, whichever way you look at it.

Mancini has earned my respect for what he has done in such a short space of time and I for one will not be calling for his head over a season that could've been far more than it is/was if only we had the CEO in a few months earlier.

The trajectory is a measure, not a rule, nothing in football is certain.
In the words of my Old Man, "Life will never be the same without Man City, so get it in while you can".

The Future's Bright, The Future's Blue!!!
User avatar
Beefymcfc
Anna Connell's Vision
 
Posts: 46711
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:14 am
Supporter of: The Mighty Blues

Re: Trajectory

Postby City64 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:11 pm

Just before a few over complicate things .......

The rags won fuck all last season and they might win fuck all again this season.




Just thought that stat needed throwing in :)
Not really here

Fuck VAR
User avatar
City64
Paul Power's Tash
 
Posts: 10741
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:02 pm
Location: Urmston, Shevington , The Etihad , In a bar anywhere watching MCFC
Supporter of: Manchester City
My favourite player is: David Silva

Re: Trajectory

Postby Beefymcfc » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:20 pm

City64 wrote:Just before a few over complicate things .......

The rags won fuck all last season and they might win fuck all again this season.




Just thought that stat needed throwing in :)

I wonder what their trajectory was when Taggart took over?

Just a thought ;-)
In the words of my Old Man, "Life will never be the same without Man City, so get it in while you can".

The Future's Bright, The Future's Blue!!!
User avatar
Beefymcfc
Anna Connell's Vision
 
Posts: 46711
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:14 am
Supporter of: The Mighty Blues

Re: Trajectory

Postby Arjan Van Schotte » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:09 pm

bigblue wrote:When people talk about trajectory (movement over time), the key word is perspective.

1968 - Win the league
1969 - FA Cup
1970 - European Cup Winners' Cup
1972 - League Cup
....
Fuck all
....
2008 - bought by the Sheik
2009 - Mancini takes over
2011 - FA Cup
2012 - Premier League

In 2 years we have won more than in the last 40. Let me say that again, in 2 years we have won more than in the last 40.

Many people seem to have the belief that our team should progress like so:

Not win shit for 39 years
Year 1: Win the cup
Year 2: Win the League by a small margin
Year 3: Dominate the league
Year 4: Dominate the league
Year 5: Dominate the league
Year 6: Dominate the league
Year 7: Dominate the league
.....

A large reason hat this is the ideal "trajectory" is that we are stuck comparing ourselves to the scum. After waiting for decades watching them win everything, we believe that this is now our turn to create a dynasty for years to come, just like the rags in the 90's. The main difference is that the rags were able to create a monopoly over money and ability to bring in top talent for years.

While the league is still extremely top heavy, the weight is dispersed between a few clubs with billions in spending power. The competition for the #1 spot is extremely high and we aren't the only billionaire funded club on the block. So to expect us to coast to the league title this year and in the near future is a self-imposed myth that will never happen (agree with Doug 100%). The "trajectory" of a 133 year old organization should not be measured in 2-3 year chunks. Even if we don't win the league this year (or even next year as well) our momentum over the past 5-10 years is positive.

Take a deep breath. Relax.


for once, i agree with that.

but i also wouldn't be too disappointed if the next few years were:

2012: sheiky fucks off and buys a massive yacht/andorra instead
2013: city relegated
2014: city relegated from championship, but knock united out of the league cup
2015: city win the league by a country mile. under keegan.
2016: city go up through the playoffs, under joe royle, after beating some team you've never heard of from the south east (pref. mk dons).
2017 city bought by ricky hatton, who declines to spend any money on stupid transfers, but buys everyone a chicken balti pie and a pint at every home game. and a george weah cuddly toy.
"Whatever it is that we "bought" - we didn't put it up for sale..."

Image
User avatar
Arjan Van Schotte
Donated to the site
Donated to the site
Denis Tueart's Overhead
 
Posts: 8692
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:17 pm
Location: Elland Back
Supporter of: Манчестер Сити

PreviousNext

Return to The Maine Football forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: carolina-blue, Jonty22, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 114 guests