Anyone got Moureens number?

[Beefymcfc]

I love Roberto, he wins things.

[Beefymcfc]

It's obvious now I suppose, but since becoming champions the whole club, from the higher management to the players, have been self-satisfied and complacent.

Apart from Bobby Manc who knew that our present situation was very likely.

Me, for different reasons.

[john68]

Piccs,
There is no ongoing debate nor discussion nor anything else to be decided in your mind Roger. You have already made the decision that Mancini isn't fit for purpose. That debate was done, dusted and ended when you made that decision yonks ago.

In order to reach your conclusion, you would obviously have already factored in; his past record, his tactical history, his statistical record, his ability or lack of it and any events/circumstances/changes within the club that may have impacted on his performance. Once you reached your decision, that part of the process had already ended. To bother revisiting is only going over old ground and regurgitating old stuff already dealt with.
Having already mentally discharged him off his duties, we move onto the next phase...Leave the chair empty? For how long? Keep it empty? Fill it with a new manager and if so, how soon and who?

It really is that simple Mate.

...and BTW I am not being pro Mancini, nor was I pro Hughes. I was/am pro City and my argument to keep Hughes at the time was subject to his success/failure to get us into the top 4 by the season's end. Which incidentally Mancini failed to do also.
My present support for Mancini is not a solid as you may imagine Roger. There are many things I would like see changed or improved. Neither am I satisfied with performances and results like yesterday.

I am open minded Mate...but as yet you haven't convinced me there is a better option, when all the circumstances are taken into consideration. I am open to your thoughts and quite willing to be convinced.

Ha Ha John, it seems you want him out really too. Just come and say it loud. You know you want to.
You also know that in all of world football there is a better option. This can't be as good as it gets.
I would want Bob out quickly and a new driven, brave young manager in. He can be our Pep.

I ask a specific question, and you dodge the question again....and again...and again.
There are many weaknesses to your argument but this perhaps is the biggest. "Maybe, somewhere, in the whole of football, there may be."....Is that it? Maybe...possibly...somewhere.
Quite obviously beyond demolition and destruction, you haven't thought this through.

Honestly Roger, you don't want a debate, you just want a moan.

lots of love
Not impressed
Middleton

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

You wanted a debate, not sure why, but I put a couple of names in the frame. Can you explain why they wouldn't work.
Come on John you wanted to talk about this, and now you duck out.
Not impressed either,
Somewhere in Yorkshire

I see now why you want to chat about this. You also know he has to go and want to crack on. Good man, I knew you'd see sense :-)

[Tokyo Blue]

You wanted a debate, not sure why, but I put a couple of names in the frame. Can you explain why they wouldn't work.
Come on John you wanted to talk about this, and now you duck out.
Not impressed either,
Somewhere in Yorkshire

I see now why you want to chat about this. You also know he has to go and want to crack on. Good man, I knew you'd see sense :-)

So Martinez or Laudrup it is then, yeah? That's what you are saying?

You really seem to have scoured world football to come up with those two names.

[john68]

Wahey Good on yer Piccs....:-)

I'm seriously not trying to play mind games with you, nor demean you Roger. I have far too much respect for you to do that. I fully understand your genuine commitment to the City cause and your emotional attachment. I am also fully aware that you seek what you believe is the best way forward for the club.

Neither of us are satisfied with the present situation but while it is my belief that there are other factors that should be considered. I don't believe that it is ALL Mancini's fault and I don't think that simply changing the manager will solve our problems. It may help somewhat but not enough to make any significant difference and certainly not at this crucial stage of the season.

It is your conclusion that we change managers and you suggest either Laudrup or Martinez. But why do you assume I would oppose them? I have nothing to prove either way mate. They are your suggestions and therefore incumbent on you to show why you think they are suitable candidates for a job that as yet is not vacant.

Genuinely, if I am convinced by your argument, then I will be more than happy to agree with you.

[Im_Spartacus]

John, you are pushing this argument down a route we are all familiar with from 4 years ago. As your main antagonist at the time, it seems Antti is taking the same line to duck the issue and belittle those who share a different view.

Just because someone who is pissed off with the current incumbent, doesn't not mean that to make his point valid he must name a replacement - but by pushing him to do so you do belittle his view and suggest the view is irrelevant even though he has given examples of the type of manager the club may wish to consider.

We could bang out 2 dozen names of established or up and coming managers and none of us would ever agree on all the merits or drawbacks.

But here are a few for consideration:

Mourinho
Ancelotti
AVB
Klopp
Bielsa
Pellegrini
De Boer

All of the above have had some measure of success in Europe with their teams, and a pedigree of decent league results (exception of bielsa). These are just from the leagues of which I am familiar with, and having seen their teams play with spirit, fight and a decent tactical awareness. Sure they all have their drawbacks, but these 7 would be a bloody good short list.

Beyond this, you have the likes of Martinez, Laudrup who I don't think should be parachuted into a big club at this stage, but are worthy of consideration if the club really want to do so etching different (which I doubt). Their chance will come but maybe not until they move to a bigger club first.

To name one person out of he list above and stick to that rigidly would not be the way the club would go about it (excepts maybe for Jose), nor should it be something that those opposed to Mancini and his methods should have to do to validate their view.

In reality it could simply be the right time for a change, for some fresh ideas, and it may be that any of the above could take us forward on that basis - the eventual decision will be down to many factors to which we aren't privy.

For my money though, I would go with Pellegrini

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

John, you are pushing this argument down a route we are all familiar with from 4 years ago. As your main antagonist at the time, it seems Antti is taking the same line to duck the issue and belittle those who share a different view.

Just because someone who is pissed off with the current incumbent, doesn't not mean that to make his point valid he must name a replacement - but by pushing him to do so you do belittle his view and suggest the view is irrelevant even though he has given examples of the type of manager the club may wish to consider.

We could bang out 2 dozen names of established or up and coming managers and none of us would ever agree on all the merits or drawbacks.

But here are a few for consideration:

Mourinho
Ancelotti
AVB
Klopp
Bielsa
Pellegrini
De Boer

All of the above have had some measure of success in Europe with their teams, and a pedigree of decent league results (exception of bielsa). These are just from the leagues of which I am familiar with, and having seen their teams play with spirit, fight and a decent tactical awareness. Sure they all have their drawbacks, but these 7 would be a bloody good short list.

Beyond this, you have the likes of Martinez, Laudrup who I don't think should be parachuted into a big club at this stage, but are worthy of consideration if the club really want to do so etching different (which I doubt). Their chance will come but maybe not until they move to a bigger club first.

To name one person out of he list above and stick to that rigidly would not be the way the club would go about it (excepts maybe for Jose), nor should it be something that those opposed to Mancini and his methods should have to do to validate their view.

In reality it could simply be the right time for a change, for some fresh ideas, and it may be that any of the above could take us forward on that basis - the eventual decision will be down to many factors to which we aren't privy.

For my money though, I would go with Pellegrini

See, I like that post much better than all the previous ones. You have drawn a sensible shortlist and now we actually hae something to discuss about and compare to Mancini.

And saying I choose belittle people who don't share my opinion slightly exaggarated. You know, I CAN do it if I want to but I most certainly haven't been aiming to do it here. However just shouting "sack Mancini" without any sort of vision what we are going to do after him is fruitless. But like I said, we are starting to see some names here which gives us at least some sort of idea what sort of future you see for us and whether I or anyone else would like to subscribre to that.

Is that Manuel Pellegrini as in Malaga manager? I remember he was ok in Villareal but then couldn't do much anything with Real and considering the investment in Malaga hasn't been able to do anything. He has never won anything of note to my knowledge. Why him?

[Im_Spartacus]

See, I like that post much better than all the previous ones. You have drawn a sensible shortlist and now we actually hae something to discuss about and compare to Mancini.

And saying I choose belittle people who don't share my opinion slightly exaggarated. You know, I CAN do it if I want to but I most certainly haven't been aiming to do it here. However just shouting "sack Mancini" without any sort of vision what we are going to do after him is fruitless. But like I said, we are starting to see some names here which gives us at least some sort of idea what sort of future you see for us and whether I or anyone else would like to subscribre to that.

Is that Manuel Pellegrini as in Malaga manager? I remember he was ok in Villareal but then couldn't do much anything with Real and considering the investment in Malaga hasn't been able to do anything. He has never won anything of note to my knowledge. Why him?

Yeah, I don't think he got a fair crack at Real Madrid, he did exceptionally well with Villareal and I think he has done a good job with Malaga despite seeming to have some right idiots as owners.

He smashed his champions league group, and is in 4th place in la liga, which, given he has lost his best players over the last 3 transfer windows, and the amount of money that would need to be spent to crack the top 2 would be similar to what was spent on us, I believe he continues to do a good job there.

He achieved 96 points in primera liga finishing 2nd to barca, before being sacked! Florentino Perez is just a fucking idiot! Although they did state that had te opportunity to appoint Jose not arisen, they would have kept him on.

He seems to be capable in the league, champions league, although no real pedigree in knockouts, has an excellent knowledge of South American football which could be useful for our academy endeavours, and whilst he is nearly 60, should have a good 5 years in him before he wants to call it a day.

He also may have the key to the secret as to how to get the best out of Roque Santa Cruz next season ;0)

And give us a good chance with isco, who I know many are saying should be our top transfer target

He doesn't actually have that many negatives against him at all, other than no prem experience

Above all that, it seems his contract is up in the summer

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

John, you are pushing this argument down a route we are all familiar with from 4 years ago. As your main antagonist at the time, it seems Antti is taking the same line to duck the issue and belittle those who share a different view.

Just because someone who is pissed off with the current incumbent, doesn't not mean that to make his point valid he must name a replacement - but by pushing him to do so you do belittle his view and suggest the view is irrelevant even though he has given examples of the type of manager the club may wish to consider.

We could bang out 2 dozen names of established or up and coming managers and none of us would ever agree on all the merits or drawbacks.

But here are a few for consideration:

Mourinho
Ancelotti
AVB
Klopp
Bielsa
Pellegrini
De Boer

All of the above have had some measure of success in Europe with their teams, and a pedigree of decent league results (exception of bielsa). These are just from the leagues of which I am familiar with, and having seen their teams play with spirit, fight and a decent tactical awareness. Sure they all have their drawbacks, but these 7 would be a bloody good short list.

Beyond this, you have the likes of Martinez, Laudrup who I don't think should be parachuted into a big club at this stage, but are worthy of consideration if the club really want to do so etching different (which I doubt). Their chance will come but maybe not until they move to a bigger club first.

To name one person out of he list above and stick to that rigidly would not be the way the club would go about it (excepts maybe for Jose), nor should it be something that those opposed to Mancini and his methods should have to do to validate their view.

In reality it could simply be the right time for a change, for some fresh ideas, and it may be that any of the above could take us forward on that basis - the eventual decision will be down to many factors to which we aren't privy.

For my money though, I would go with Pellegrini

Beautifully put there Spartacus.
I tossed those two names in there, not as they the only names I can come up with, but by way of illustrating a point.
If you consider a track record stuffed with trophies absolutely vital, then even Antti couldn't argue with appointing Jose.
But in this country if you aint managing an elite group of three, then you have next to no chance.That can not mean that all the managers are 'no good', that they aint worthy of consideration. That is why I suggest these chaps, and to ask the question, is Bob so much of a better manager that he would do better than them in their present positions?
Laudrup could be about to win Swansea's first major trophy, to be in the final is quite something for them. Admittedly, it's not all his own work, but he has carried on with Rogers's and MARTINEZ's fine work. Nevertheless, it would be a phenomenal achievement, possibly surpassing us winning the title last season. It must have been ace to be a Jack's fan over the last three years,(other than being Welsh) with a degree of success, and watching excellent ATTACKING, passing football, of the type all football fans like to see. His record in management is not bad, largely with a smaller budget, but when he was at a club that is in a position to do well, (Brondby) he did well. At every club he has been at, he has played crowd pleasing football.
Anybody care to explain why he would fail at City?

Martinez again has always tried to play football the correct way. Every year that Wigan stay up, it is another minor miracle. But he has never resorted to hoofing, or roughing up tactics and stayed true to his beliefs. He has conducted himself well, comes across as a clever and respectful man, and has shown loyalty to Wigan in a time when that is rarely found. He started the ball rolling at Swansea and has over achieved at those two clubs.
Can anybody say why he wouldn't be a fine manager, with a squad of top players and a ton of cash to spend at his disposal.

Maybe taking on a manager without the required 'pedigree' would be a risk, but so is hoping that Mancini somehow get's his head out of his arse and gets this mob of ours upwardly mobile again. Because it looks remarkably like he can't at the moment.

However, it isn't vital to decide on a name right now, the question is should Bob go or stay? Because at the moment he is still manager. But to say there is nobody else to take over, is utter trite rubbish. And John that isn't really your style, I know you as a very clever man indeed. So stop it.

[Ted Hughes]

If we appointed Laudrup or similar tomorrow, I recon they would find quite a few ways of improving our attacking system.

But Mancini built last years success by boring the shit out of us in the past building a defence & then expanding. Ok, he has himself fucked it all up this season, but the pedigree is there to suggest he can get it back.

Can these blokes do that ?

Mourinho can tbf, but the rest ?

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

If we appointed Laudrup or similar tomorrow, I recon they would find quite a few ways of improving our attacking system.

But Mancini built last years success by boring the shit out of us in the past building a defence & then expanding. Ok, he has himself fucked it all up this season, but the pedigree is there to suggest he can get it back.

Can these blokes do that ?

Mourinho can tbf, but the rest ?

Recent history shows us that the resources are the most important thing and go the biggest part of the way to success for a manager. Furthermore, both those two have played attractive football with a degree of success that surpassed expectations.
So "why wouldn't they be able to achieve with us?" is a better question.

[Ted Hughes]

If we appointed Laudrup or similar tomorrow, I recon they would find quite a few ways of improving our attacking system.

But Mancini built last years success by boring the shit out of us in the past building a defence & then expanding. Ok, he has himself fucked it all up this season, but the pedigree is there to suggest he can get it back.

Can these blokes do that ?

Mourinho can tbf, but the rest ?

Recent history shows us that the resources are the most important thing and go the biggest part of the way to success for a manager. Furthermore, both those two have played attractive football with a degree of success that surpassed expectations.
So "why wouldn't they be able to achieve with us?" is a better question.

I think my question is a better one.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

If we appointed Laudrup or similar tomorrow, I recon they would find quite a few ways of improving our attacking system.

But Mancini built last years success by boring the shit out of us in the past building a defence & then expanding. Ok, he has himself fucked it all up this season, but the pedigree is there to suggest he can get it back.

Can these blokes do that ?

Mourinho can tbf, but the rest ?

Recent history shows us that the resources are the most important thing and go the biggest part of the way to success for a manager. Furthermore, both those two have played attractive football with a degree of success that surpassed expectations.
So "why wouldn't they be able to achieve with us?" is a better question.

I think my question is a better one.

Ok.
Yes they can . . . .
Probably.

[Ted Hughes]

If we appointed Laudrup or similar tomorrow, I recon they would find quite a few ways of improving our attacking system.

But Mancini built last years success by boring the shit out of us in the past building a defence & then expanding. Ok, he has himself fucked it all up this season, but the pedigree is there to suggest he can get it back.

Can these blokes do that ?

Mourinho can tbf, but the rest ?

Recent history shows us that the resources are the most important thing and go the biggest part of the way to success for a manager. Furthermore, both those two have played attractive football with a degree of success that surpassed expectations.
So "why wouldn't they be able to achieve with us?" is a better question.

I think my question is a better one.

Ok.
Yes they can . . . .
Probably.

More likely than Mancini doing it again ?

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

That's the $64 million question.
But as I can't see the direction we're meant to be going in under Mancini, I think it is less of a risk.
So much depends on the FA Cup, win that and once again it is hard to dismiss him. But is that enough when we presumably want bigger things?

[john68]

Sparty,
Please don't go another footstep down the road that I am trying to belittle Piccs or his argument...you are wrong on both counts. I respect Piccs as a person, class him as a mate though and fully understand his commitment to City and his wish to see improvement. I specifically added a paragraph to ensure that was made plain. Please don't look for hidden meanings, there are none.

There is a difference in simply being disastisfied with a manager and wanting him removed. We all have a go at the team, players and manager from time to time that is quite normal but Piccs and others had specified that they wanted Mancini changed and that moves, or should move their argument on.

I know Picc's reasons for wanting Mancini out at this point, I disagree. What didn't know was how he viewed the futurenor who he had in mind to replace Mancini and the that was/is the source of my challenge and pushing.

There is little point in my arguing Mancini's case nor the wider issues surrounding him and the club, we did that some time ago to no effect. That argument had run its full course between Piccs and I. No matter what either said was likely to change the other's view.

With specific regard to this board, the Hughes debate became overheated and it caused more than some ill feeling between certain posters some excellent posters left, whilst other posted less. One of the main reasons was that opinions became entrenched as the arguments repeatedly went round and round. We look like entering into a similar period on here now and the dangers then could well be replicated again. Finally Mate, during that previous heated Hughe's debate between Antti and myself, we sent several PMs to each other ensuring that no matter how heated we got nor what was publicly said, we maintained a personal respect throughout.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

Sparty,
Please don't go another footstep down the road that I am trying to belittle Piccs or his argument...you are wrong on both counts. I respect Piccs as a person, class him as a mate though and fully understand his commitment to City and his wish to see improvement. I specifically added a paragraph to ensure that was made plain. Please don't look for hidden meanings, there are none.

There is a difference in simply being disastisfied with a manager and wanting him removed. We all have a go at the team, players and manager from time to time that is quite normal but Piccs and others had specified that they wanted Mancini changed and that moves, or should move their argument on.

I know Picc's reasons for wanting Mancini out at this point, I disagree. What didn't know was how he viewed the futurenor who he had in mind to replace Mancini and the that was/is the source of my challenge and pushing.

There is little point in my arguing Mancini's case nor the wider issues surrounding him and the club, we did that some time ago to no effect. That argument had run its full course between Piccs and I. No matter what either said was likely to change the other's view.

With specific regard to this board, the Hughes debate became overheated and it caused more than some ill feeling between certain posters some excellent posters left, whilst other posted less. One of the main reasons was that opinions became entrenched as the arguments repeatedly went round and round. We look like entering into a similar period on here now and the dangers then could well be replicated again. Finally Mate, during that previous heated Hughe's debate between Antti and myself, we sent several PMs to each other ensuring that no matter how heated we got nor what was publicly said, we maintained a personal respect throughout.

It's true Sparta, I have genuine man love for John. I also respect his opinion and on chatting with him on many occasions, know him to be surprisingly brainy, for a taxi driver. It's just he's fucking wrong on this one :-), the mad old twat.

[john68]

Sparty,

As I have read further through the thread, I think my previous post stands. The debate has moved on and there is no anatgonism. Even Antti and I are in agreement.....that's gotta tell you something...:-)

My work is done...:-)

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I have to say I've been very impressed with how Spartacus has articulated on this subject.