Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Nigels Tackle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:25 am

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:
john@staustell wrote:
Hazy2 wrote:Are we there yet.


Patience children. Sit quietly in the back!

I think our recent revenue figures will have really spooked our FFP 'enemies'. I will be very interested see if there is still a marked improvement in this year's figures, or if we are hitting a wall. Positives are the new TV deal and the inevitable ground expansion.

Within 2 years it could easily be that FFP is working in City's favour, whilst the likes of Arsenal and Milan financially stagnate! Oh the irony.


If I'm not mistaken the new Etihad deal wasn't included in the latest figures. We also have the new kit deal to kick in next season along with the new TV deal so I think it's safe to say our turnover will be higher again.


new kit? who's making it? anyone seen any leaked pics ??
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Rag_hater » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:26 am

Ultimately, only the courts can decide whether or not a commercial practice is unfair within the meaning of the CPRs.
If a trader misleads, behaves aggressively, or otherwise acts unfairly towards consumers, then the trader is likely to be in breach of the
CPRs and may face action by enforcement authorities.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Hazy2 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:30 pm

I am nearly kaking mi pants Are we there yet FFS PULL OVER.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Rag_hater » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:28 pm

The FFP is a restraint-of-trade simple as that.
And to think the best legal minds could not come up with a case for a court to listen to is laughable.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Im_Spartacus » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:35 pm

Rag_hater wrote:The FFP is a restraint-of-trade simple as that.
And to think the best legal minds could not come up with a case for a court to listen to is laughable.


Only if football is classed as a trade / business. This is the exact point I was making, that it would need a court to define the nature of a football club away from the sort of social enterprise it is at the moment, into that of a fully fledged business in the eyes of the law.

As very very few football clubs actually make money, there is an argument that they aren't businesses at all. But given the amounts of money they generate now, it would be hard to argue that they arent a 100% commercial organisation.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Mikhail Chigorin » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:43 pm

Duckman wrote:
dazby wrote:Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Does this mean Grob is coming back? And he's from another country? Or multiple countries? Or multiple Grobs to take us all over?

in serbian, croatian and bosnian, grobar means an undertaker...I was baffled.


In Chess, 'The Grob' is the name of an (offbeat) opening 'system', usually played by the white pieces. However.......

With regard to FFP, I'm somewhat perplexed by the apparent state of Chelsea's finances.

Throughout the Abramovitch era, they've spent big on bringing in players on large wages which have to be paid, they don't have a stadium which will hold 60,000 or 70,000+ fans like Arsenal or the Scum so their matchday income is not as large as some teams, they're not a massive global product bringing in huge overseas revenues and yet, apparently, aren't their recent trading accounts supposed to be showing some sort of surplus ??.

In a way, we're in a sort of similar position to them with regard to ownership investment and debt equitisation, but we're still making annual trading losses so they must be doing something 'right', even though it's a bit puzzling as to what that might be.

They couldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, be using a little creative accounting in their financial returns, could they ??
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby BookJunior » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:25 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
john68 wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:Bad joke in title & pathetic, bitter, wanker writing the piece aside, there is actually some pretty serious & potentially enormous stuff in that article, which brings up all manner of possibilities.

Some Arsenal fans are shitting themselves over this, as they really genuinely thought FFP had us fucked & their club had been working on a cunning long term plan to see them come out on top, as opposed to just asset stripping..


Once you got past the shit, it was quite illuminating Ted. I don't think it's just Arsenal fans who should be worried by City's present rise and future ambitions.
Though I hate to say it, even with the Glazers skimming the rag's profits and loading them with debt, they seem to have a plan to remain extremely financially viable and not be hampered as many (including me) thought.
The rise of Spurs alongside us is a bigger problem for Arsenal as it may force Arsenal out of the top four and into a similar position as Liverpool. It seems the Arsenal experiment under Gadzidis/Wenger has/is failing. Spur's rise could cause them big problems.
The biggest victims seem to be the Fenway group at Anfield. They bought the Scousers on the understanding that the FFP was being introduced domestically, which shows that the planning to keep City down and out has been going on a long time. If City are successful and Spurs continue to rise under Levy, the Scousers are pretty much fucked.

Ironically if the old English elite of Arsenal and Scouse fail to get back to or remain in the top four, their biggest problem for recovery will be the very rules they set up by their greed working now AGAINST them.

Now you can really laugh Ted.


This has saved the Glazers because if City had spent unlimited amounts for the next five years (for the very top players it would have dwarfed our previous spending) the Glazers couldn't compete & pay off the debt at the same time, & not competing is not an option as Utd would have no support ouside UK, Ireland & Norway within about 3 years if they stopped winning titles.

Long term, it means Utd can compete so long as we don't vastly outperform them financially & then start spending accordingly. If/when we do that, they will have to change the rules again so that all clubs are limited in the amount they can spend irrespective of income or profit.

And they will if it happens.

I expect some kind of regulation on academies to be introduced next when they realise we are light years ahead on that score as well.


I've read the article several times and cannot believe the degree of blatant prejudice displayed.

I also agree with your analysis Ted. FFP was brought in to protect the UEFA Clique.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Socrates » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:46 am

EU competition law largely exempts the organisation of sports from articles 81 and 82 applying, it doesn't matter if it is big business or not! If it didn't apply clubs could just move country or join whichever country's association they liked. Qualification rules could not be set for competitions at all and collective tv rights would also then be illegal. There is no way they will repeal the huge exemptions of sports from those articles. As long as rules are evenly applied and are within the scope of legitimate objectives of organisation of the sport then they are exempt.

From the EC's own site: Legitimate objectives of sporting rules will normally relate to the “organisation and proper conduct of competitive sport”[32] and may include, e.g., the ensuring of fair sport competitions with equal chances for all athletes, the ensuring of uncertainty of results, the protection of the athletes’ health, the protection of the safety of spectators, the encouragement of training of young athletes, the ensuring of financial stability of sport clubs/teams or the ensuring of a uniform and consistent exercise of a given sport (the “rules of the game”). The specificity of sport, i.e. the distinctive features setting sport apart from other economic activities, such as the interdependence between competing adversaries, will be taken into consideration when assessing the existence of a legitimate objective.

Competition law also exempts sports from cartel rules if decisions are made by representative associations. There are no grounds to challenge EUFA. The reason City are looking more closely at the FA rules is that domestic common law may be more helpful. They clearly already ruled out an ECJ challenge.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Dameerto » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:02 am

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:
In Chess, 'The Grob' is the name of an (offbeat) opening 'system', usually played by the white pieces. However.......

With regard to FFP, I'm somewhat perplexed by the apparent state of Chelsea's finances.

Throughout the Abramovitch era, they've spent big on bringing in players on large wages which have to be paid, they don't have a stadium which will hold 60,000 or 70,000+ fans like Arsenal or the Scum so their matchday income is not as large as some teams, they're not a massive global product bringing in huge overseas revenues and yet, apparently, aren't their recent trading accounts supposed to be showing some sort of surplus ??.

In a way, we're in a sort of similar position to them with regard to ownership investment and debt equitisation, but we're still making annual trading losses so they must be doing something 'right', even though it's a bit puzzling as to what that might be.

They couldn't, by any stretch of the imagination, be using a little creative accounting in their financial returns, could they ??


That's a point I've made a few times on here, no one in the media is questioning their announcement that they made a profit despite spending large amounts of money on a squad overhaul.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Im_Spartacus » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:25 am

Socrates wrote:EU competition law largely exempts the organisation of sports from articles 81 and 82 applying, it doesn't matter if it is big business or not! If it didn't apply clubs could just move country or join whichever country's association they liked. Qualification rules could not be set for competitions at all and collective tv rights would also then be illegal. There is no way they will repeal the huge exemptions of sports from those articles. As long as rules are evenly applied and are within the scope of legitimate objectives of organisation of the sport then they are exempt.

From the EC's own site: Legitimate objectives of sporting rules will normally relate to the “organisation and proper conduct of competitive sport”[32] and may include, e.g., the ensuring of fair sport competitions with equal chances for all athletes, the ensuring of uncertainty of results, the protection of the athletes’ health, the protection of the safety of spectators, the encouragement of training of young athletes, the ensuring of financial stability of sport clubs/teams or the ensuring of a uniform and consistent exercise of a given sport (the “rules of the game”). The specificity of sport, i.e. the distinctive features setting sport apart from other economic activities, such as the interdependence between competing adversaries, will be taken into consideration when assessing the existence of a legitimate objective.

Competition law also exempts sports from cartel rules if decisions are made by representative associations. There are no grounds to challenge EUFA. The reason City are looking more closely at the FA rules is that domestic common law may be more helpful. They clearly already ruled out an ECJ challenge.


And if the representative associations decisions are not representative of its members' interests?

It would not be an overly difficult case for the likes of Fulham to use nearly a century's worth of evidence of clubs NOT going out of business (in particular in the UK) despite having shocking owners, piss poor management and the fact that aside from Manchester United and a handful of German clubs, Football Clubs run as loss making vehicles for transferring salaries to players, always have and always will.

If the very ethos of ffp is to prevent those losses in the future and to make football either more profitable, that alone is a shift to a commercial business when the motive is profit rather than sport. That signals a fundamental change in the basis of the "sport" whereby sport is a means to an end, and the principle activity of the "sporting endeavour" is to make a commercial profit, it effectively becomes a business not a sports club- and that is the crucial point of any future argument.

By restricting the ability of clubs owners to absorb losses at their own discretion, that straight away brings into question just how competitive a competition could be when only one or two clubs make a profit despite still being able to comfortably outspend all others on wages and transfers. And that profit snowballs because of entry to the cash pot of the champions league. Therefore there are also anti-competition questions even if the clubs do remain classified as sports clubs.

Given that there is a 92% correlation between wages and league position across all the English leagues (city interestingly being one of the 8% upto 2008 ), the argument would be pretty clear cut that competition would be killed stone dead by these rules.

It's without doubt a minefield which route clubs will challenge these rules on, whether it be in the UK, Europewide, etc.

As for the likes of clubs joining other leagues, there would still be a members vote to allow them in. If there was an appetite amongst the clubs for that to happen, eg like with the mooted North Atlantic league from a few years ago, then so be it. But there is no precedent that I'm aware of whereby a foreign club could bulldoze its way into a league it wasn't wanted, yet there is over 100 years of history of football clubs on the whole being run at a loss by a benefactor which puts the ffp rules very much under scrutiny as to exactly what they are really designed to achieve, when its clearly got nothing to do with stopping clubs going out of business based on the evidence below.

Out of 88 teams from the 4 leagues in 1927, 85 still exist, and 85% play within 2 divisions of where they were in 1927.

Football clubs on the whole, particularly since the concept of administration, simply drop to a level commensurate with their sustainability. They will ALWAYS find a level, be it league one, two, etc, but in reality very few teams in the PL will ever be sustainable because of the cost of participation. FFP will not alter that, it will just make e cost of achieving a decent league position, completely out of reach to most
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Socrates » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:52 am

There has been a members' vote for ffp too, Europe wide and EPL... Why would a members' vote be more valid for other forms of rule?

Football cannot reclassify itself whatever it does, the articles would have to be renegotiated to do that. SPORT is specifically exempted whether big business or not. Article 81 and 82 are clear. There is no minefield. The inclusion of financial rules has occurred in other sports and precedent in football goes back decades. In terms of EU law football is only impacted when matters outside the general rules of competition come into play - e.g. free movement of labour. If we were prevented from selling merchandise it would apply. Rules of competitions however don't. Can it be any clearer?
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Im_Spartacus » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:20 am

Socrates wrote:There has been a members' vote for ffp too, Europe wide and EPL... Why would a members' vote be more valid for other forms of rule?

Football cannot reclassify itself whatever it does, the articles would have to be renegotiated to do that. SPORT is specifically exempted whether big business or not. Article 81 and 82 are clear. There is no minefield. The inclusion of financial rules has occurred in other sports and precedent in football goes back decades. In terms of EU law football is only impacted when matters outside the general rules of competition come into play - e.g. free movement of labour. If we were prevented from selling merchandise it would apply. Rules of competitions however don't. Can it be any clearer?


Who said anything about football reclassifying itself? I said a court could very easily decide that the principle activity of a football club is as a commercial organisation, and that the sporting element is incidental to that. That's the courts reclassifying football, not the clubs.

In terms of a foreign club wanting access to a different league, the foreign club already have a clear legal argument against a vote by the member clubs to exclude them.

But firstly a club would be very unlikely to want to participate in a competition where the other competitors didn't want them, but the reality is, that a court would very probably decide that they should be admitted to the English league structure - as we already allow teams from other nations into our leagues - therefore on precedent, there would probably be little we could do other than make it so difficult as to not be worth the effort trying.

But there would be no precedent to a challenge to FFP either UK or EU, as it would be the first time that there is likely to be a clear body of proof that the rules are a result of collusion by self interested parties. If there has been collusion to undermine the sporting integrity of "competition" within a competition, eg, by preventing an investor self funding the wage bill to allow his club to compete, when mountains of historical data show that you can only compete by having a high wage bill, then this is in effect fixing the outcome of the competition and I would argue that it contravenes both the sporting principles, and also the business principles so it would be arguable either way.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Alex Sapphire » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:26 am

Socrates wrote:There has been a members' vote for ffp too, Europe wide and EPL... Why would a members' vote be more valid for other forms of rule?

Football cannot reclassify itself whatever it does, the articles would have to be renegotiated to do that. SPORT is specifically exempted whether big business or not. Article 81 and 82 are clear. There is no minefield. The inclusion of financial rules has occurred in other sports and precedent in football goes back decades. In terms of EU law football is only impacted when matters outside the general rules of competition come into play - e.g. free movement of labour. If we were prevented from selling merchandise it would apply. Rules of competitions however don't. Can it be any clearer?


Clear?...

"A number of people have asked whether the FFPRs could be challenged as illegal under a number of avenues; one being competition law. As a competition lawyer, it seemed appropriate to briefly outline some of the risks and justifications from a competition law
perspective. If clubs are refused their UEFA license, meaning they cannot participate in the Champions League, may decide to challenge the legality of the FFPRs. Set out below is an outline analysis of whether the FFPRs could be challenged on competition law grounds, by whom and whether UEFA could provide enough resolute justifications.

The FFPRs are for ease of reference assessed here in relation to Article 101 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), though before domestic courts, national competition rules would usually apply. A challenge to the rules would be likely to occur in the form of a complaint to the European Commission, a national competition authority or a civil action in the domestic courts. Presumably, an aggrieved club could make complainant representations to the European Commission or national competition regulator once the UEFA appeals procedures had been exhausted; the European Commission could then initiate an investigation. Note that Article 66 of the Disciplinary Regulations states that any appeal is final, which would suggest that no other civil court proceedings could be commenced.

It should also be noted that club X who finishes one place below Champions League qualification club Y may become an interested party and complain to UEFA if it believes that UEFA should have refused club Y a license because it was in breach of the FFPRs. Ian Ayre, the Liverpool Managing Director, commented recently that: These rules should be rules and should be hard and fast. What will kill the initiative, or certainly stifle it, is people easing themselves into it rather than the rules applying and everyone operating within them. The rules should be clearly defined, you cannot have a half rule process.



http://go.warwick.ac.uk/eslj/volume9/number1/geey

Reading between the lines, some clubs who feel confident of passing the FFPRs could seek recourse to the courts if the UEFA appeals process does not deliver the desired outcome and the rules are not consistently applied. Without delving into the detailed law governing the correct forum for any such dispute, it is necessary to point out that UEFA regulations stipulate that recourse to the courts is prohibited. It gives jurisdiction to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) to arbitrate on conflicts to the "exclusion of any ordinary court" (Article 60 of the UEFA Statutes).
[url]http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFi
les/Download/Regulations/uefaorg/General/01/47/69/97/1
476997_DOWNLOAD.pdf[/url]
Therefore UEFA has the power to initiate disciplinary proceedings against a UEFA affiliated club if it begins national court proceedings. Suffice to say that if a club still decides, after incurring the wrath of UEFA, to use competition law to challenge the
FFPRs it is worthwhile to note that Article 101(1) outlaws:
All agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market and specifically (b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment.

Should a club challenge the legality of the FFPRs and pass all the potential domestic and/or EU requisite standing requirements, it would then have to prove that the FFPRs restriction fell within Article 101(1) by arguing that the rules have the object or effect of restricting the ability of a club owner to spend whatever they chose. In other words, the autonomy of what a club owner can do is restricted. The club challenging the rules would have to argue that Article 101(1) (or its domestic equivalent) is engaged. UEFA would argue that the FFPRs either:

do not fall within the Article 101(1) restriction in the first place (see for example
Wouters v Algemene Raad van de Nederlandse Orde van Advocaten (C309/99))
; or
that the agreement can be exempted under Article 101(3) (see for example provision 7 in 2003/778/EC: Commission Decision of 23 July 2003 relating to a proceeding pursuant to Article 81 of the EC Treaty and Article 53 of the EEA Agreement (COMP / C.2-37.398-Joint selling of the commercial rights of the UEFA Champions League))

Article 101(3) states that:
The provisions of paragraph 1 may, however, be declared inapplicable [if the restriction] (i) contributes to improving the production or distribution of goods or to promoting technical or economic progress, while (ii) allowing consumers a fair share of
the resulting benefit, and which does not, (iii) impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of these objectives;
or (iv)
afford such undertakings the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the products in question.

Therefore, if the challenging club gets over the first hurdle of engaging Article 101(1), which is by no means guaranteed, UEFA would argue that Article 101(3) applies and that even if the FFPRs were deemed anti-competitive that the four 101(3) tests would be satisfied and the FFPRs could therefore be exempted.

From a practical perspective, such an investigation would take time and in the case of a club whose license had been rejected in advance of next season’s Champions League participation, it would be extremely unlikely that a European Commission investigation or court case could be concluded in time for participation in that year’s competition. A club could perhaps decide to seek declaratory relief in court proceedings as the basis for re-instatement into the UEFA competition.

UEFA would stress that the process of drafting the rules has been conciliatory, the European Club Association (ECA) has been engaged in every step of the way and that any clubs who had substantive concerns should have voiced their displeasure at the formative stages. This author’s understanding of the consultation process with UEFA and the ECA is that a number concessions were made (i.e. the Annex XI provisions, the staggered standard deviation approach and the removal of all infrastructure and youth development costs from the break-even calculation).

http://go.warwick.ac.uk/eslj/volume9/number1/geey

This author is yet to hear of any club claiming that the FFPRs are illegal. Indeed UEFA would no doubt argue that if clubs have not yet criticised the rules and/or questioned their legality, why only challenge the rules when the club has breached them and
are facing sanction? The general argument would be that a club cannot use competition law as a weapon when that same club has tacitly accepted the rules of the game and, more so, been active in the very formulation of the rules. In addition UEFA would also contend that the FFPRs do not limit investment at all. On the contrary they incentivise investment in long-term projects like youth
development or stadium construction over shorter term investment on transfer fees andwages.

An aggrieved club however may argue that there is an indirect investment restriction because in order to break even, or reach the acceptable deviation point, clubs can only spend what they earn. They are thus indirectly constrained by their own cost base. To counter this, UEFA would use such arguments that a benefactor could buy a club and invest heavily on infrastructure, youth development and other FFPRs exempt costs. Whilst this does restrict the autonomy of what an owner can do, UEFA would point to the restrictions having the pro-competitive benefits of:
ensuring the integrity of competitions;
promoting good governance;
safeguarding financial stability of clubs and leagues; and
encouraging longer term infrastructure investment.

Additionally, it is worthwhile pointing out that the rules only apply to clubs in UEFA competitions. In a previous article, in relation to third party player ownership, I stated that in relation to multiple club ownership:
CAS decided in the ENIC case that the rule prohibiting one company owning more than one club competing in the same UEFA club competition was proportionate. This was because, among other reasons, it still allowed an entity to purchase more than one European club. The prohibition was that two commonly owned clubs could not compete in the same competition.
CAS explained that the UEFA rule was proportionate because there was not an absolute prohibition on a company’s ability to buy two European football clubs. It just meant both could not play in the same European competition.
(See http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/law/elj/eslj/issues/volume7/number2/geey/#a10)

It would appear the same kind of logic may apply to the current situation in that clubs can effectively spend what they want whilst playing in domestic competitions (subject to national association rules). UEFA is only regulating entry into its competitions and there are a variety of other national competitions that a club can participate in which are not subject to UEFA's FFPRs.

Therefore UEFA would state that its rules are not all encompassing. Indeed, any club that qualifies can chose whether it wants to apply for a license for participation in European competitions. Needless to say, the challenging club would argue that if you want to be a top club, Champions League revenue is vital and therefore re-occurring qualification into the Champions League is imperative to maintain revenues and compete at the top of the national league.

It is on this proportionality ground (number 3 of Article 101(3)) that UEFA may have strong reasons for arguing it has not gone beyond what is necessary for securing the objective of financial fair play. UEFA would however have to set out appropriate reasons for why the regulations would pass the other three tests that make up Article 101(3) gateway. In reality many of the arguments may overlap.

The European Commission recently gave its tentative approval to the FFPR by stating: The Commission welcomes the adoption of measures aimed at enhancing financial fair play in European football while recalling that such measures have to respect Internal
Market and competition rules. (See http://ec.europa.eu/sport/news/doc/communication/communication_en.pdf)

Rather unhelpfully however such a comment was so heavily caveated that the statement is of little practical use. Being in favour of the FFPRs subject to EU law offers little guidance on the European Commission’s thinking as to the practical legalities of the regulations.

It was recently confirmed to by Andrea Traverso of UEFA that UEFA has had a series of consultations with the European Commission to ensure that the rules complied with EU law. Presumably the European Commission would have wanted UEFA to explain the various
reasons (i.e. defences) to demonstrate why:

the FFPRs would not fall under Article 101(1) but if they did; that

there were enough substantive justifications to ensure that they are covered by the Article
101(3) exemption.

It is not surprising that UEFA has had detailed discussions with the European Commission to ensure that there are robust legal arguments underpinning the FFPRs. So whilst this section can only speculate as to the challenges that face the FFPRs in the future, it is clear that UEFA has done much behind the scenes to engage with clubs and the regulators alike."
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Ted Hughes » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:50 am

Socrates wrote:EU competition law largely exempts the organisation of sports from articles 81 and 82 applying, it doesn't matter if it is big business or not! If it didn't apply clubs could just move country or join whichever country's association they liked. Qualification rules could not be set for competitions at all and collective tv rights would also then be illegal. There is no way they will repeal the huge exemptions of sports from those articles. As long as rules are evenly applied and are within the scope of legitimate objectives of organisation of the sport then they are exempt.

From the EC's own site: Legitimate objectives of sporting rules will normally relate to the “organisation and proper conduct of competitive sport”[32] and may include, e.g., the ensuring of fair sport competitions with equal chances for all athletes, the ensuring of uncertainty of results, the protection of the athletes’ health, the protection of the safety of spectators, the encouragement of training of young athletes, the ensuring of financial stability of sport clubs/teams or the ensuring of a uniform and consistent exercise of a given sport (the “rules of the game”). The specificity of sport, i.e. the distinctive features setting sport apart from other economic activities, such as the interdependence between competing adversaries, will be taken into consideration when assessing the existence of a legitimate objective.

Competition law also exempts sports from cartel rules if decisions are made by representative associations. There are no grounds to challenge EUFA. The reason City are looking more closely at the FA rules is that domestic common law may be more helpful. They clearly already ruled out an ECJ challenge.


Where in any of that does it give UEFA the right to adjudicate the market price for a sponsorship deal & that one kind of sponsorship deal is more acceptable than another ?
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:20 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
Socrates wrote:EU competition law largely exempts the organisation of sports from articles 81 and 82 applying, it doesn't matter if it is big business or not! If it didn't apply clubs could just move country or join whichever country's association they liked. Qualification rules could not be set for competitions at all and collective tv rights would also then be illegal. There is no way they will repeal the huge exemptions of sports from those articles. As long as rules are evenly applied and are within the scope of legitimate objectives of organisation of the sport then they are exempt.

From the EC's own site: Legitimate objectives of sporting rules will normally relate to the “organisation and proper conduct of competitive sport”[32] and may include, e.g., the ensuring of fair sport competitions with equal chances for all athletes, the ensuring of uncertainty of results, the protection of the athletes’ health, the protection of the safety of spectators, the encouragement of training of young athletes, the ensuring of financial stability of sport clubs/teams or the ensuring of a uniform and consistent exercise of a given sport (the “rules of the game”). The specificity of sport, i.e. the distinctive features setting sport apart from other economic activities, such as the interdependence between competing adversaries, will be taken into consideration when assessing the existence of a legitimate objective.

Competition law also exempts sports from cartel rules if decisions are made by representative associations. There are no grounds to challenge EUFA. The reason City are looking more closely at the FA rules is that domestic common law may be more helpful. They clearly already ruled out an ECJ challenge.


Where in any of that does it give UEFA the right to adjudicate the market price for a sponsorship deal & that one kind of sponsorship deal is more acceptable than another ?


If one day somebody comes up with a satisfactory answer as to how UEFA can legally determine the correct market value of sponsorship deals, I'll accept that we may struggle to get around ffp.

I've been asking this for several years now & have had no definitive answers or evidence whatsoever to suggest they can actually do this, in fact I still haven't seen the details from UEFA themselves as to exactly how their panel with various failed financial 'experts' etc intend to determine 'market value' for sponsorship of a multi million pound business & all the different scenarios that could crop up & why those people would be deemed fair & capable arbiters of such rules.

We can go through the motions of complying with ffp & show how hard we are trying to balance the books, but when some fucker stands up & tells us we are not allowed to receive 'x' amount of sponsorship money but Real Madrid Barca etc are, because of their history, the shit will hit an almighty fan imo & clubs like PSG will be there ahead of us.

I don't think UEFA can or will enforce that part of the rule & I don't believe for one second that we, or PSG, or probably even the rags, have signed up to any agreement giving them those powers. It has nothing to do with competition rules, it would be a random bunch of blokes, interfering with how a perfectly legitimate business is run & impairing it from operating to its true potential, for the benefit of its competitors.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Socrates » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Sparticus - we are talking about the ECJ which cannot go against the articles or change them. It can only enforce them. The articles are clear on this.
Alex sapphire : warwick can hardly be said to be arguing against what I've said. Cannot quote as can only get this site through the app at present but the bigger likelihood is indeed a challenge to force uefa to exclude a club rather than a challenge to exclusion!
Ted - isn't that difficult to come up with a fair value and indeed that is exactly what City themselves have taken into account when making the sponsorship as broad as possible.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:59 pm

Socrates wrote:Sparticus - we are talking about the ECJ which cannot go against the articles or change them. It can only enforce them. The articles are clear on this.
Alex sapphire : warwick can hardly be said to be arguing against what I've said. Cannot quote as can only get this site through the app at present but the bigger likelihood is indeed a challenge to force uefa to exclude a club rather than a challenge to exclusion!
Ted - isn't that difficult to come up with a fair value and indeed that is exactly what City themselves have taken into account when making the sponsorship as broad as possible.


With respect, someone saying 'it isn't difficult' is no different to someone saying 'it is difficult'.

I want to know how a panel of randomly selected people can determine it. For instance, if PSG, City, & a couple of Russian teams annpunce sponsorship deals for £150 mil per year, what is the market value ? Do you set it at the rate of Barca's last deal ? Lets say Barca announce a £50 mil per year deal & the panel says City are only allowed the same. If so what if Barca announce one that's 50% higher 6 months later ? Do the panel say 'oh sorry Barca, you can't have another deal' ? Or 'oh sorry City, Barca are up to £75 mil, so we'll allow you £75 mil out of your £150 mil now ? Then can we claim we missed our top transfer target because they hadicapped us illegally ? Does the panel have a value for Aguero's title winning goal ? Do Etihad have to pay us more now because of it ?

Just 'oh it's dead easy' is not a suitable answer to the possible hundreds of questions this one are could pose.

If someone can show me to my satisfaction, how some random panel can legally decide the value of a sports sponsorship deal I will accept it. So far, after several years of asking, nobody has ever even tried to give any kind of answer as to how that would work. They will surely have to prove this, not just do it on a whim because they don't like it.

Also, I think City have made it impossible for them to do so with the Etihad deal as the Etihad sponsorship of the City campus is apparently a unique deal & thus has no comparable market value. You really think we would just let some failed finance geeks dock us £50 mil per year without a fight ? I see the whole reason we have employed so many experts in this matter as putting the minute details of the possible legal battle & the weight of argument on our side.

I don't belive UEFA will even try to invoke this in our case & probably not PSGs either. If they do, & we let them do it without a challenge, I will apologise for repeating this.

I think UEFA could find themselves right in the shit with potential legal action from both sides in this situation & a right fucking mess on the horizon with people trying to force them to take action they can't legitimately take.
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Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Socrates » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:18 pm

I think the Etihad deal isn't necessarily even a connected party by their definition Ted but agree they made it impossible to argue with. Was what I meant by my "broad as possible" comment. Is actually part of the evidence of how seriously we are taking ffp! They can look at comparible deals when looking at just shirt or stadium sponsorship though.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Peter Doherty (AGAIG) » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:27 pm

Socrates wrote:I think the Etihad deal isn't necessarily even a connected party by their definition Ted but agree they made it impossible to argue with. Was what I meant by my "broad as possible" comment. Is actually part of the evidence of how seriously we are taking ffp! They can look at comparible deals when looking at just shirt or stadium sponsorship though.

The thing is though (and as you say), if the deal is not related-party, UEFA can't even look at it. And it isn't, so they can't. I reckon the PSG deal will also fall into the non-'related-party' category.
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Re: Grobarisation soon to arrive ?

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:47 pm

Socrates wrote:I think the Etihad deal isn't necessarily even a connected party by their definition Ted but agree they made it impossible to argue with. Was what I meant by my "broad as possible" comment. Is actually part of the evidence of how seriously we are taking ffp! They can look at comparible deals when looking at just shirt or stadium sponsorship though.


Do we even have a seperate figure for either of those ?

I understand what you are saying but my answer to this has always been that clubs like us & PSG will find sponsors who allow us to get round it. Their dodgy panel may think the amounts are excessive & that the owners are connected, but 'thinking' that is one thing wheras taking action to stop it will be pretty much impossible unless the amounts involved are truly outrageously beyond belief imo.

PSG are going for it anyway, so they will have to have this argument with Platini's son.
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
Ted Hughes
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