How Maine Road got its name

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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby BlueinBosnia » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:32 am

MCFChistory wrote:You raise some good points, and yes, spelling in Victorian times was not standardised as it is today. It's also worth noting that in 1876 the official name of the road as recognised by the Moss Side Local Board was different to the official name used in the Ordnance Survey map.

As someone who has to regularly scrutinise old maps, I can tell you that place names on official publications are rarely up-to-date. This is due to two things:
i) Creating a map is a long arduous process, and can take several years. For an 1876 map, the data could have been collected at some point in the (late) 1850s.
ii) Creating a map is a long arduous process, and people often 'cut corners' by copying older sources (especially in cadastral surveys, where mistakes may not be picked up for 50+ years).

Due to social changes in the latter half of the 19th century leading to quite rapid street name changing, especially in urban areas, no 'primary' source for a street name change could be taken as 100% reliable, barring a newspaper announcement or official municipal document.

Census information can be found here: http://www.1901censusonline.com/main.asp?wci=welcome

Go to 'search census', and you have options from 1841 to 1911. You can try something like 'search location' for both 'Main' and 'Maine' Road, on the 1871, 81 and 91 censuses, with location as 'ch*' (that's what I did, for 'Manchester', but the district is actually registered as 'Chorlton'). Maine Road pops up from 1881. I haven't had a look for Dog Kennel or Domain/Demain.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby MCFChistory » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:17 pm

gary james wrote:The full story of how Dog Kennel Lane was renamed Maine Road was covered extensively in my 2008 book "The Big Book Of City" - it was because of the Temperance Movement as that book explained and it was tied in with the Maine Law.

I explained that the road was to be called Demesne Road due to its proximity to Demesne farm which appears on maps in my 2003 book "Farewell To Maine Road" but the compromise was Maine Road - There is of course another Demesne Road in the area but that was/is a different road.

I'm surprised this is being revealed as new information now - it was published over 5 years ago in my book and has since been discussed on radio and appeared on various other websites. Manchester Confidential picked up on the story last year: http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk ... -City-Game

Worth adding that it was renamed in sections and both Dog Kennel Lane and Maine Road co-existed with the 'top' end of the road renamed in stages before Dog Kennel Lane was eventually cut off from Maine Road (at the end of the present day Maine Rd) when that final stage of terraced housing was built. It's all in the book.

If anyone wants to know more read The Big Book Of City: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Book-City-G ... pg__header

Here's a couple of photos of part of the story in my 2008 book: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... =3&theater

& http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... =3&theater



The new information is that the Temperance Society asked for the road to be renamed “Domain Road”, not “Demesne Road”, and that Maine Road appears to be a derivation of that.

I'm well aware of your theory regarding the state of Maine. I have the relevant section of the Big Book of City open in front of me, but it doesn't cite any sources. Where does the claim linking the naming of the road to the state of Maine actually come from?
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby gary james » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:13 pm

MCFChistory wrote:
gary james wrote:The full story of how Dog Kennel Lane was renamed Maine Road was covered extensively in my 2008 book "The Big Book Of City" - it was because of the Temperance Movement as that book explained and it was tied in with the Maine Law.

I explained that the road was to be called Demesne Road due to its proximity to Demesne farm which appears on maps in my 2003 book "Farewell To Maine Road" but the compromise was Maine Road - There is of course another Demesne Road in the area but that was/is a different road.

I'm surprised this is being revealed as new information now - it was published over 5 years ago in my book and has since been discussed on radio and appeared on various other websites. Manchester Confidential picked up on the story last year: http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk ... -City-Game

Worth adding that it was renamed in sections and both Dog Kennel Lane and Maine Road co-existed with the 'top' end of the road renamed in stages before Dog Kennel Lane was eventually cut off from Maine Road (at the end of the present day Maine Rd) when that final stage of terraced housing was built. It's all in the book.

If anyone wants to know more read The Big Book Of City: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Book-City-G ... pg__header

Here's a couple of photos of part of the story in my 2008 book: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... =3&theater

& http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set= ... =3&theater



The new information is that the Temperance Society asked for the road to be renamed “Domain Road”, not “Demesne Road”, and that Maine Road appears to be a derivation of that.

I'm well aware of your theory regarding the state of Maine. I have the relevant section of the Big Book of City open in front of me, but it doesn't cite any sources. Where does the claim linking the naming of the road to the state of Maine actually come from?


Andrew, it's directly from a newspaper article talking about this - as I've said before it would be good for us to meet and I'll happily talk to you about sources and so on. It looks like the editing of that page in the book cut the newspaper name/date off before the quote (it will probably be the Manchester Chron because of the period and style of article - as I'm sure you are aware odd things like that do occasionally sneak through in publishing), but I have all my sources logged and will go through this when we meet if you like. As I've said to you before I'm always keen to meet and share ideas with anyone researching City's (and Manchester's football) history - there are at least 3 other people (plus us) performing detailed research on the early years of City at the moment and each offers a different perspective.

Some I agree with, others maybe not, but the key thing for me is to share and discuss to develop a better understanding of this period in football. When I started researching Goble, Maddocks, Chapman, Masey & fellow members of the AFS willingly gave up their time to help me and I've tried to follow that approach, helping anyone who contacted me and offering assistance to others. The more research that's done on City the better. There's still much more to be done.

We obviously share a lot of ideas and interest in City's early history and there's much more information that I've not yet had chance to include in my books. There's also lots more to research - I continue to be excited by the odd snippet I find on Roden, Beastow, Parlby etc. and I meet up and correspond with descendents of that first team in 1880/the ones who carried it all through. All I want to do is develop, properly record and promote City's history as it should be. My fingers were burnt significantly when the Anna Connell story blew up out of all proportion and I am very keen on ensuring we all work together on ensuring City's history is accurately recorded. No myths, no hype just facts.

As I've said to you before we really should get together. I'm convinced we share similar ideas.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby MCFChistory » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:33 pm

Gary, this is the second time you've dismissed my findings on a talkboard. It's also the second time you have failed to cite your sources when asked. A few days ago someone started a thread on Bluemoon about my story on City's start date, which I am arguing is 1884. You made a post dismissing my findings, claiming you had evidence to support the 1880 start date. I asked you to produce the evidence, but you did not do so. Instead you asked to meet me, hinting that you would produce the evidence then.

This is completely unacceptable. If you're going to publicly criticise my work you have to produce evidence publicly. To have someone with your high profile and reputation dismiss my research out of hand will inevitably damage my reputation and affect my livelihood.

My book makes significant new conclusions about City's origins based on a huge amount of new evidence. Defending my findings is an important part of the historical process. However, this can only be done by discussing the evidence.

Regarding the issue of the origins of the Maine Road name, the only evidence for a link to the state of Maine is a newspaper cutting, the date and author of which has not been stated. Nor does the author of the newspaper article cite any sources for the claim.


BlueinBosnia,
Thanks for that link. I've been using the ancestry.co.uk site but this one looks more useful. The 1871 census records the road's name as Dog Kennel Lane but there is no record of a Dog Kennel Lane or Domain / Demain Road in the 1861 census. I accept your points about the map-making process. The point I was making is that its unclear which body was the ultimate arbiter of road names during this period. It's also unclear as to why Ordnance Survey opted for the name "Domain Road".
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Nigels Tackle » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:46 pm

lobster dinner anyone?
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Peter Doherty (AGAIG) » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:58 pm

Nigels Tackle wrote:lobster dinner anyone?

I trust MCFChistory.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby BlueinBosnia » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:38 am

MCFChistory wrote:BlueinBosnia,
Thanks for that link. I've been using the ancestry.co.uk site but this one looks more useful. The 1871 census records the road's name as Dog Kennel Lane but there is no record of a Dog Kennel Lane or Domain / Demain Road in the 1861 census. I accept your points about the map-making process. The point I was making is that its unclear which body was the ultimate arbiter of road names during this period. It's also unclear as to why Ordnance Survey opted for the name "Domain Road".


No offence, but it took me less than 3 minutes to search after reading your initial post to get a more definitive timeframe than you offered. I am 2,500 miles away from Manchester, and have never had to carry out research in the UK for professional purposes. That makes me think that your research is not the be-all-and-end-all.

I don't know what the English equivalent of a cadastral office is (possibly Land Registry?), but they should have copies of all official acts regarding street name changes. I know WW2 made a bit of a hash of everything, record keeping-wise (try living in Bosnia & Herzegovina: a country full of disorganised, trigger-happy buggers, who've historically lived in wooden houses and love nothing more than an open fire), but bits and bobs can generally be dug out of archives, libraries and suchlike...

Edit: That is in no way a slur on BiH, which really is a wonderful country, but if that guy who sits pretty in Canada and takes offence to anything people say against Dzeko wants to think it is, then it's open season...
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby gary james » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:40 am

MCFChistory wrote: However, this can only be done by discussing the evidence.


Andrew, I agree and that's why I wanted to meet you when we first came into contact in 2011 and still do. I won't enter into a debate on a public forum because that is definitely not the right way to proceed. I am absolutely delighted that other people are researching and reaching conclusions about City's history - as I've said so many times there's much more to be discovered.

In terms of specifics... I have not dismissed your findings in either post I've simply stated that the story about Maine Rd's name was published in my book in 2008 - you rightly pointed out that the reference was missing (hey, we all make mistakes) but in essence it's the same story. Similarly your views on 1884 are very similar to mine which has been published before - anyone who reads my section on that season in "Manchester The City Years" will see the significance of that year. Where we differ I guess is that you appear to see 1884 as more of a clean break than I do. That's fine. That's your interpretation based on the material available to you and mine's based on my research as well.

Incidentally, I only commented on this forum because you specifically mentioned my name on here and so I added my view; on the Bluemoon forum someone asked for my opinion on whether 1884 or 1894 was the club's formation, so I gave my opinion - I didn't comment on your book at all and talked purely on my research. You then posted a response and I offered again to meet.

I hope that anyone who has ever approached me or met me or read my books knows that I actively look to help and work with others and I hope they understand my position. I'm not going to be drawn into a debate on here. All research is valid and welcomed. The offer to meet and discuss remains - as it does with anyone else researching Manchester football.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:58 am

I wish it had stayed as Dog Kennel Lane. It sounds smucking fart, a little bit intimidating and would have lent itself to great headline writing.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby ZonaZooBlu » Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:32 pm

Come on now, what's a Maine Road thread without pictures of our former home- as of today, 29/3/13

Image
The back of The Kippax.
Image
The pitch used to look miles bigger when I was a kid!
Image
Corner of The Kippax and North Stand, not sure if that white building has been re-named the Gene Kelly Apartments!

So the site was farmland and then a brickworks right? Are there any pictures of the site before it was our home?
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby BlueinBosnia » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:43 pm

ZonaZooBlu wrote:So the site was farmland and then a brickworks right? Are there any pictures of the site before it was our home?

Do you mean Maine Road or Etihad?

Etihad was a colliery, brickworks & ironworks. Just been doing a wee bit of digging over the past couple of days, and at least one publication has come out on it: Redhead, Miller, Rowland & Parsons (2011), Rediscovering Bradford: Archaeology in the Engine Room of Manchester, Greater Manchester's Past Revealed here: http://www.amazon.com/Rediscovering-Bra ... ef=wp_p_tl

A couple of snippets of info at these sites, too: http://oxfordarchaeology.com/case-studi ... manchester
http://thehumanjourney.net/index.php?op ... &Itemid=40
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby ZonaZooBlu » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:02 pm

BlueinBosnia wrote:
ZonaZooBlu wrote:So the site was farmland and then a brickworks right? Are there any pictures of the site before it was our home?

Do you mean Maine Road or Etihad?

Etihad was a colliery, brickworks & ironworks. Just been doing a wee bit of digging over the past couple of days, and at least one publication has come out on it: Redhead, Miller, Rowland & Parsons (2011), Rediscovering Bradford: Archaeology in the Engine Room of Manchester, Greater Manchester's Past Revealed here: http://www.amazon.com/Rediscovering-Bra ... ef=wp_p_tl

A couple of snippets of info at these sites, too: http://oxfordarchaeology.com/case-studi ... manchester
http://thehumanjourney.net/index.php?op ... &Itemid=40

Interesting stuff, I was living abroad during the whole move to Eastlands and wasn't really familiar with that part of Manchester. However, I was talking about Maine Road..I'm guessing pictures from that time would be few and far between...
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby MCFChistory » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:31 pm

BlueinBosnia wrote:
MCFChistory wrote:BlueinBosnia,
Thanks for that link. I've been using the ancestry.co.uk site but this one looks more useful. The 1871 census records the road's name as Dog Kennel Lane but there is no record of a Dog Kennel Lane or Domain / Demain Road in the 1861 census. I accept your points about the map-making process. The point I was making is that its unclear which body was the ultimate arbiter of road names during this period. It's also unclear as to why Ordnance Survey opted for the name "Domain Road".


No offence, but it took me less than 3 minutes to search after reading your initial post to get a more definitive timeframe than you offered. I am 2,500 miles away from Manchester, and have never had to carry out research in the UK for professional purposes. That makes me think that your research is not the be-all-and-end-all.

I don't know what the English equivalent of a cadastral office is (possibly Land Registry?), but they should have copies of all official acts regarding street name changes. I know WW2 made a bit of a hash of everything, record keeping-wise (try living in Bosnia & Herzegovina: a country full of disorganised, trigger-happy buggers, who've historically lived in wooden houses and love nothing more than an open fire), but bits and bobs can generally be dug out of archives, libraries and suchlike...

Edit: That is in no way a slur on BiH, which really is a wonderful country, but if that guy who sits pretty in Canada and takes offence to anything people say against Dzeko wants to think it is, then it's open season...


None taken. The information I posted at Manchester Football History is from a chapter about Gorton AFC's 1884-85 “Maltese Cross” photo. That chapter identifies the people in the photo and produces new evidence as to why they wore the cross. The evidence (which I'm happy to go into more detail about) also indicates that the photo was taken before Gorton's Manchester Cup tie with Dalton Hall on 31 January 1885, which was played at Maine Road (referred to as Dog Kennel Lane in a match report).

You say that this research is "not the be-all-and-end-all" regarding the history of the road's name. That is most certainly correct. My book explains our club's origins up to 1885, and the information about the road's name is merely background to the photo's story. However, it does shed new light on the origins of the road's name, as well as the important role the road played in Manchester's football history.
Last edited by MCFChistory on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby MCFChistory » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:51 pm

gary james wrote:
MCFChistory wrote: However, this can only be done by discussing the evidence.


Andrew, I agree and that's why I wanted to meet you when we first came into contact in 2011 and still do. I won't enter into a debate on a public forum because that is definitely not the right way to proceed. I am absolutely delighted that other people are researching and reaching conclusions about City's history - as I've said so many times there's much more to be discovered.

In terms of specifics... I have not dismissed your findings in either post I've simply stated that the story about Maine Rd's name was published in my book in 2008 - you rightly pointed out that the reference was missing (hey, we all make mistakes) but in essence it's the same story. Similarly your views on 1884 are very similar to mine which has been published before - anyone who reads my section on that season in "Manchester The City Years" will see the significance of that year. Where we differ I guess is that you appear to see 1884 as more of a clean break than I do. That's fine. That's your interpretation based on the material available to you and mine's based on my research as well.

Incidentally, I only commented on this forum because you specifically mentioned my name on here and so I added my view; on the Bluemoon forum someone asked for my opinion on whether 1884 or 1894 was the club's formation, so I gave my opinion - I didn't comment on your book at all and talked purely on my research. You then posted a response and I offered again to meet.

I hope that anyone who has ever approached me or met me or read my books knows that I actively look to help and work with others and I hope they understand my position. I'm not going to be drawn into a debate on here. All research is valid and welcomed. The offer to meet and discuss remains - as it does with anyone else researching Manchester football.



I think a City forum is the ideal place to discuss evidence about the club's history, and I'm not sure why you think otherwise.

The relevant thread on Bluemoon can be found via the link below. People can make their own judgement on your comments.
http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=280074&start=10

You claim that my story on Maine Road's name is “in essence" the same story as yours. This is not true. You also make this claim: “Similarly your views on 1884 are very similar to mine which has been published before”. Again, this is untrue, and indicates that you have not read my book.
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Themontyburns » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:57 am

[quote="Peter Doherty (AGAIG)"][/quote]

Still pissing myself at The pigeon, cough and fag comment. good name for a pub. Helps me digest the debate that follows
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Lee_R » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:08 pm

Sorry not read the rest of this thread but came across this info and picture.

'Maine Road was originally known as Dog Kennel Lane but renamed Maine Road (after the Maine law) during the 1870s at the insistence of the Temperance Movement who owned land on Dog Kennel Lane and the local authority accepted their request.'

Also not sure if attachment is uploaded correctly so if someone could edit my post or advise. Ta
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby eastlandsblue.co.uk » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:12 am

I loved Maine Road but its the new name that worries me

I’m a City fan, an ‘Eastlands Blue’ and I think it’s very sad
That we came to Eastlands from Maine Road, now they call it the ‘Etihad’

Well the ‘Etihad’, it means ‘Unite’, and for City that must be wrong
Would loyal Blues fans use that name, in a City chant or a song?

The sponsorship naming was welcome, to fund all the needs of Man City
But if fans are expected to use it, well really, I think that’s a pity

Corporate names change and some say ‘Ours won’t’, but I’d say ‘Never say never’
The one thing you have to remember is, Man City will be here forever

Our ground is a place to be cherished, as ‘Maine Road’ was to most of our fans
Not a brand, a label or an Airline, but a place to be loved called ‘Eastlands’
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Lee_R » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:27 am

eastlandsblue.co.uk wrote:I loved Maine Road but its the new name that worries me

I’m a City fan, an ‘Eastlands Blue’ and I think it’s very sad
That we came to Eastlands from Maine Road, now they call it the ‘Etihad’

Well the ‘Etihad’, it means ‘Unite’, and for City that must be wrong
Would loyal Blues fans use that name, in a City chant or a song?

The sponsorship naming was welcome, to fund all the needs of Man City
But if fans are expected to use it, well really, I think that’s a pity

Corporate names change and some say ‘Ours won’t’, but I’d say ‘Never say never’
The one thing you have to remember is, Man City will be here forever

Our ground is a place to be cherished, as ‘Maine Road’ was to most of our fans
Not a brand, a label or an Airline, but a place to be loved called ‘Eastlands’



wtf just happened?!
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Re: How Maine Road got its name

Postby Alex Sapphire » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:21 am

Lee_R wrote:
eastlandsblue.co.uk wrote:I loved Maine Road but its the new name that worries me

I’m a City fan, an ‘Eastlands Blue’ and I think it’s very sad
That we came to Eastlands from Maine Road, now they call it the ‘Etihad’

Well the ‘Etihad’, it means ‘Unite’, and for City that must be wrong
Would loyal Blues fans use that name, in a City chant or a song?

The sponsorship naming was welcome, to fund all the needs of Man City
But if fans are expected to use it, well really, I think that’s a pity

Corporate names change and some say ‘Ours won’t’, but I’d say ‘Never say never’
The one thing you have to remember is, Man City will be here forever

Our ground is a place to be cherished, as ‘Maine Road’ was to most of our fans
Not a brand, a label or an Airline, but a place to be loved called ‘Eastlands’



wtf just happened?!


he's bitter because he didn't register the url "etihadblue.co.uk"
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