a laugh about rags home attandance

[stevefromdonny]

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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:11 pm
Posts: 202
Location: South stand 121 http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013 ... ce-figures

Manchester United are adding as many as 24,000 fans on to crowd attendances compared with the actual number of people watching games at Old Trafford, according to police data.

Sir Alex Ferguson's team have not had a single crowd over 70,000 for a league match, police say, not taking in Monday's game against Manchester City. The club, in contrast, recorded attendances in excess of 75,000 every time. Instead Greater Manchester police's figures claim the average crowd for league matches, excluding City, is 10,000 below what the club say. The police records state it is 65,601 rather than the official figure of 75,527. In all competitions it is 61,739 rather than the club's 73,653.

United are still the best-supported club in England by some distance but the new set of figures claim Old Trafford was not even half-full for the Capital One Cup tie against Newcastle in September. The police recorded the number of people who passed through the turnstiles at 33,409. United gave the crowd as 46,358. In the next round, against West Ham, the disparity was even bigger. The police put down the crowd as 51,724, whereas United recorded it as 71,081.

When United played Cluj in the Champions League in December, having qualified for the knockout stages, the crowd was announced as 71,521. In fact, the police say it was 46,894.

The disparity is because United, in common with other clubs, release the number of people who bought tickets, whether or not they attend. The police keep their own record of actual match-goers for safety purposes and have released the data to the Redsaway fans' website under the Freedom of Information Act.

The figures show the high number of supporters who will buy tickets for matches without going. Arsenal are among the clubs who suffer the same problem on a large scale.

United's largest crowd of the season for a league match, according to the police, was 69,933 for Liverpool's visit in January (the club put it at 75,501). The lowest was against Southampton later that month. On that occasion the official attendance was given at 75,600 when, according to the police, the genuine figure was 59,766. In other words, almost 16,000 ticket-holders stayed away.

The Real Madrid match in the Champions League attracted the one 70,000-plus attendance at Old Trafford this season, in the data. The police recorded it at 72,299 whereas United declared it was 74,959, lower than any domestic league match because of Uefa's seating restrictions.

comment by Paulpowersleftfoot (U1037)
posted 3 minutes ago
Date Opponents Actual attendance given by GMP Official attendance given by MUFC
25-Aug-12 Fulham 66,005 75,352
15-Sep-12 Wigan Athletic 66,686 75,142
29-Sep-12 Tottenham Hotspur 68,072 75,566
20-Oct-12 Stoke City 64,722 75,585
03-Nov-12 Arsenal 69,077 75,492
24-Nov-12 Queens Park Rangers 64,452 75,603
28-Nov-12 West Ham United 62,304 75,572
15-Dec-12 Sunderland 64,294 75,582
26-Dec-12 Newcastle United 64,996 75,596
29-Dec-12 West Bromwich Albion 66,847 75,595
13-Jan-13 Liverpool 69,933 75,501
30-Jan-13 Southampton 59,766 75,600
10-Feb-13 Everton 68,123 75,525
02-Mar-13 Norwich City 66,238 75,586
16-Mar-13 Reading 62,493 75,605

UEFA Champions League
Date Opponents Actual attendance given by GMP Official attendance given by MUFC
19-Sep-12 Galatasary 61,111 74,653
23-Oct-12 S.C. Braga 56,452 73,195
05-Dec-12 CFR 1907 Cluj 46,894 71,521
05-Mar-13 Real Madrid 72,299 74,959

Domestic cups
Date Opponents Actual attendance given by GMP Official attendance given by MUFC
26-Sep-12 Newcastle United 33,409 46,358
16-Jan-13 West Ham United 51,724 71,081
26-Jan-13 Fulham 55,080 72,596
18-Feb-13 Reading 57,172 75,213
10-Mar-13 Chelsea 63,582 75,196

[john@staustell]

Well it's good fun mate, but I reckon the next 2 in line for this charge are Arsenal and City. You've only got to look at all the empty seats on 'sellouts'.

[Alex Sapphire]

sales of tickets is all that matters to the club. Dibble need to know how many there are for different reasons.

However as a money spinning idea, maybe they should start doing what the airlines used to and oversell seats to take account of no-shows.
They could have a standby desk in Matt Busby Way

[spiny]

Well it's good fun mate, but I reckon the next 2 in line for this charge are Arsenal and City. You've only got to look at all the empty seats on 'sellouts'.

A few bubbles burst in this article. Are you suggesting a "no show" league table? That would be interesting. :-)

Being pedantic, the police are right in defining "attendance" as the number actually attending rather than tickets sold.

[Rag_hater]

An article like that would make somebody think someone in the media wanted to take the piss out of the rags.Didn't think stuff like that was allowed.

[Alioune DVToure]

An article like that would make somebody think someone in the media wanted to take the piss out of the rags.Didn't think stuff like that was allowed.

Let it go, mate.

[Original Dub]

An article like that would make somebody think someone in the media wanted to take the piss out of the rags.Didn't think stuff like that was allowed.

It must be so frustrating?

[Rag_hater]

An article like that would make somebody think someone in the media wanted to take the piss out of the rags.Didn't think stuff like that was allowed.

Let it go, mate.

Why?

[Alioune DVToure]

Why?

Because it's boring. Most of the media are pro-rag, but there's the odd journalist who'll write a critical piece. That's that.

You're becoming like a broken record again, having made some half-decent posts on other topics in recent weeks.

[Beefymcfc]

I can understand there being a couple of thousand discrepancy but 24,000! That is an amazing number of no-shows and goes to prove that their system of charging for tickets as part of the scheme works for them and not the supporter.

[Rag_hater]

Why?

Because it's boring. Most of the media are pro-rag, but there's the odd journalist who'll write a critical piece. That's that.

You're becoming like a broken record again, having made some half-decent posts on other topics in recent weeks.

It's probably boring for a genius like you but a retard like me sees an opportunity like this and has to take advantage of it.
Another one,fuck

[Mase]

Funny thing is I had to take clients to both the Newcastle and West Ham matches at the swamp and I remember thinking it was absolutely dead!! I even took a picture of the stadium half empty to show my rag mates who moan that they can't get a ticket.

[Original Dub]

It's probably boring for a genius like you but a retard like me sees an opportunity like this and has to take advantage of it.
Another one,fuck

Happy days, you got a bite! First good day at the office for a long time.

*golf clap*

[stevefromdonny]

Funny thing is I had to take clients to both the Newcastle and West Ham matches at the swamp and I remember thinking it was absolutely dead!! I even took a picture of the stadium half empty to show my rag mates who moan that they can't get a ticket.

why take them there, take them to the home of the champions

[Mase]

why take them there, take them to the home of the champions

I would love to mate. But the owner of the company has a box at the swamp. I'm not putting my hand in my pocket and buying four corporate tickets for us.

[Rag_hater]

Cannot see why this does not allow us to do the same.
Why can't we extend the stadium and say we are sold out all the time.

[Dawnherts]

Is it not a bit more cunning than it first seems...... If police only provide manpower for their "counted" no.s doesn't it make it cheaper for the club??? Are they in cahoots? Under policing or cheaper manpower for tickets .... Hmmmm. You always need a woman's perspective on these kinda things :-D

[Original Dub]

Cannot see why this does not allow us to do the same.
Why can't we extend the stadium and say we are sold out all the time.

There's nothing to stop us doimg that. Except of course, they are actually selling the tickets.

[CTID Hants]

Is it not a bit more cunning than it first seems...... If police only provide manpower for their "counted" no.s doesn't it make it cheaper for the club??? Are they in cahoots? Under policing or cheaper manpower for tickets .... Hmmmm. You always need a woman's perspective on these kinda things :-D

On the flip side, you could look at it they are missing out on £100k in sales inside the ground per game (based 20k people each spending on average £5 each).

That is how I like to think of it, them losing out on almost £2M over a season :-)

Police will need those figures fo health and safety reasons so they must be accurate. Not sure what the police bill is per match, fairly sure though 20k less persons would save them £100k?

[patrickblue]

On this subject, it appears that the most supported team in the world are getting an acoustics expert in to make the tourists sound louder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22110898

How do you give stadiums atmosphere?
By Martin Vennard
BBC World Service



A good atmosphere at a sports stadium can make the difference for both the players on the pitch and the spectators in the stands. But how easy is it to engineer that sense of crowd magic?

The nickname the Theatre of Dreams for Manchester United's Old Trafford stadium was never intended to evoke a sleepy atmosphere. But the club has taken on an acoustic engineer to see how they can boost noise levels in the ground.

A good atmosphere in a stadium matters to the business people who run sport because it can attract even more ticket buyers.

The boost a lively crowd gives to the home team and the way it can intimidate the opposition can also help bring success, and therefore money, to a club.

So, how can you create a good atmosphere in a sports stadium?

"You have to achieve a connection between the spectator and the event," says Rod Sheard of the Populous architecture practice, which has designed many major sports stadiums and arenas across the globe.

"The closer that is, the better the atmosphere will be."

Sheard says that was the aim when designing the 80,000-seat London Olympic Stadium, which will be turned into West Ham's new home. "We fought hard to keep that a tight bowl, so that the vast majority of the crowd were close. Even the last row felt connected," he says.

Creating an atmosphere is not only about generating as much noise as possible. It is also about making the fans feel they are part of an event and giving them an experience they could not get by watching it on television at home.

That is not a common enough phenomenon at Old Trafford, according to Ian Stirling, vice chairman of the Independent Manchester United Supporters Association.

"The sound inside Old Trafford is very localised," Stirling says. "I've had season tickets in quite a few places and there will be a lot of atmosphere in those areas, but you just won't hear it down at the other end."

Acoustics is about geometry, says David Keirle, chairman of KSS sports architects and designers. "Noise travels by line of sight. There are parts of Old Trafford where you can't see or hear what's going on in other parts," he says.

Improving the atmosphere in an existing stadium is obviously different to building it up from scratch and Keirle says one solution for Old Trafford could be to pump noise via microphones around the ground.

KSS designed a curved and tilted roof for Brighton and Hove Albion's new Amex Community Stadium, which Keirle says retains the noise and reflects it onto the field of play. "You get long reverberations and people respond," he says.

Keirle has been impressed by the atmosphere at the Centurylink Field stadium where the Seattle Seahawks American football team play, and inside Twickenham for England rugby matches.

Design is irrelevant if the fans aren't up for it
Some new-builds have been more successful than others regarding atmosphere.

"Wembley is poor partly due to England's fans, who can be day trippers, and the rake is huge," Winter says, referring to the slope of its lower tier.

Shear, whose company designed it, says he has attended matches there with a great atmosphere.

"Inevitably when you do a stadium with more than one purpose you have to compromise. It is a big stadium and seats 90,000. If you changed the rake on the first row by a few millimetres that would have an effect of several metres at the back."

Listen to an interview with Ian Stirling on the BBC World Service programme Newshour

Listen via BBC iPlayer
Browse the World Update podcast archive
More from BBC World Service
But atmosphere is not all to do with design, says Kevin Miles, chief executive of the Football Supporters Federation, and a Newcastle United fan.

"Ticket prices have gone up 700 per cent since the formation of the Premier League. The age of the fans has therefore gone up, when the atmosphere was created by the younger working class fans. You have to price it accessibly."

Miles says the loss of standing sections, where most of the atmosphere was created, has also had a negative effect. He says designated singing areas - which can be a euphemism for the toleration of standing - have helped the atmosphere in stadiums, such as Manchester City's and Sunderland's.

"The location of the away fans - who can have a disproportionate effect on the atmosphere - is also important. They can spark a reaction from home fans, while a lot of clubs have moved them up into the corner out of the way."

Noise at London's Oly
mpic Stadium was said to reach 110 decibels at times
When it comes to atmosphere, Winter believes clubs could learn a lot from Germany's Bundesliga, where standing sections exist and tickets can cost a fraction of their English equivalents.

"At Borussia Dortmund and Bayern Munich they have a strong fan culture and you don't get that opera-style attitude from the fans of, 'you entertain me'," he says.


After London's Olympic Stadium design was unveiled, we pondered what national sporting venues said about a country's citizens
When Delhi was struggling to fill its venues for the Commonwealth Games, we asked how best to get punters through the turnstiles
And we noted that one thing guaranteed to get fans making a noise is a football club deciding to sell off stadium naming rights to sponsors
Borussia Dortmund fans are known for their coordinated displays of murals at matches and many were impressed by the show they put on ahead of Tuesday's Champions League quarter-final against Malaga.

Winter and Miles say the atmosphere at Galatasaray's derby matches in Istanbul takes some beating. The passion of the supporters is a major factor, according to Winter.

"Marseille is unbelievable because of the fans. Architecturally the Stade Velodrome shouldn't work, but it doesn't matter," he says.

Architects admit they can only provide part of the jigsaw puzzle that makes up atmosphere. "We can help the process with design, but we can't make it happen," Sheard says.

Winter has one final piece of advice for any team trying to improve the atmosphere in its stadium. "Playing good football is the best idea," he says.