Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Blue Since 76 » Wed May 29, 2013 10:53 pm

bigblue wrote:
To me, Mancini always had the mindset of a win-at-all costs manager (like Mourinho or baconface). There are very few people in fotball that I think have a deeper desire to win than Mancini. He many not have always had the tactics or man-management to back it up, but his mindset was always top notch.
.


Whilst I didn't rate Mancini's 'holistic' ability in management and thought we could do better, the above is absolutely correct. And not just from management - read some of the stuff from when he was a player.

I actually suspect some of the above was his downfall as a manager - he had such exacting standards, he couldn't understand those who didn't do their best and he didn't try to get it out of them, he just dumped them.

As for Laudrup, I think he could be a good manager and deserves a chance at a club with a bit of cash to spend. However, he's not ready for a top 4 side yet and it would be a huge gamble for us or Chelsea, for instance, to take him.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Thu May 30, 2013 2:37 am

So I take it all of you in this here thread are avid followers of the Danish football system?

You're seriously discussing his merits based on his time in the Danish league which is the final destination of players that are too good for the Swedish league but not good enough for the Dutch league and a stepping stone for players that(mostly) end of populating the first division of the Dutch, Swiss and Austrian leagues. A league that like all of the Scandinavian leagues is a lot about luck and where a season is often decided on whether the title contenders get to keep their star players during the transfer window that interrupts the season.

Mind you I'm willing to applaud any team that snatches the league trophy away from FC Copenhagen (the financial super power of that league) but before anyone mentions Bröndby in the CL, they have to remember that those years were also very good for the Danish league in general, with good agent connections into the African player-market. The league had a market advantage that has since decreased to some extent. The financial advantages over Sweden that enabled Danish clubs to take the best from our precious Allsvenska has also decreased since, because of changes in government and the tax-cuts that followed.

What happened to Bröndby after Laudrup went has nothing to do with his absense. It should also be rememberd that he had a financial backing that most of his predecessors and successors wasn't and hasn't been able to enjoy.

By all means debate, but it might be wise not to put too much value on wins made in any Scandinavian league. Our leagues are full of managers that win them but aren't former superstars and not much becomes of them. That a former superstar who spent a good chunk of his career in Spain then went to Spain to manage should probably not be seen as a result only based on merit and if Laudrup hadn't spent his decent (not succesful) season at Getafe, we might not have heard more about him than that he got fired from some mildly interesting job in the Netherlands or Denmark.

The main discussion point should probably be if he's been able to reciprocate his early successes outside of Denmark. Has he?
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Tesl » Thu May 30, 2013 3:13 am

bigblue wrote:Your feelings against Mancini stems from something illogical and grew into ridiculous proportions. You give other managers the benefit of the doubt when Mancini would get endless criticism if he were in the same situation. It is pointless to talk with you about anything remotely related to Mancini (say for example a new manager to replace him) because you went so far off the deep end in wanting him out that you bamboozled yourself.


Just wanted to quote this for more emphasis!
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Thu May 30, 2013 3:23 am

Tesl wrote:
Just wanted to quote this for more emphasis!


Don't bother. As I replied, the people that mattered could see it too. If you couldn't that's yer own problem.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby zuricity » Thu May 30, 2013 4:35 am

Cocacolajojo wrote:So I take it all of you in this here thread are avid followers of the Danish football system?

You're seriously discussing his merits based on his time in the Danish league which is the final destination of players that are too good for the Swedish league but not good enough for the Dutch league and a stepping stone for players that(mostly) end of populating the first division of the Dutch, Swiss and Austrian leagues. A league that like all of the Scandinavian leagues is a lot about luck and where a season is often decided on whether the title contenders get to keep their star players during the transfer window that interrupts the season.

Mind you I'm willing to applaud any team that snatches the league trophy away from FC Copenhagen (the financial super power of that league) but before anyone mentions Bröndby in the CL, they have to remember that those years were also very good for the Danish league in general, with good agent connections into the African player-market. The league had a market advantage that has since decreased to some extent. The financial advantages over Sweden that enabled Danish clubs to take the best from our precious Allsvenska has also decreased since, because of changes in government and the tax-cuts that followed.

What happened to Bröndby after Laudrup went has nothing to do with his absense. It should also be rememberd that he had a financial backing that most of his predecessors and successors wasn't and hasn't been able to enjoy.

By all means debate, but it might be wise not to put too much value on wins made in any Scandinavian league. Our leagues are full of managers that win them but aren't former superstars and not much becomes of them. That a former superstar who spent a good chunk of his career in Spain then went to Spain to manage should probably not be seen as a result only based on merit and if Laudrup hadn't spent his decent (not succesful) season at Getafe, we might not have heard more about him than that he got fired from some mildly interesting job in the Netherlands or Denmark.

The main discussion point should probably be if he's been able to reciprocate his early successes outside of Denmark. Has he?


Great and timely post Coca.

You were able to expand on bigblues perceptions about Laudrup and the Danish league in particular.

This is the kind of knowledge that proves useful in a debate, not the kind of wiki stuff that gets bandied about.

Whether it is acceptable to the people that 'matter' on this forum , is open to debate, but I, for one enjoy reading such as has been written by bigblue, yourself, john86 and quite often Carl and Slim. Not that this matters at all.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Socrates » Thu May 30, 2013 4:43 am

bigblue wrote:
Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:
Laudrup did a rebuilding job there. My standards are not merely set by the trophy haul but by the standard of play and the quality of the entertainment. In Engkand to win trophies you have to overcome the formidable opposition of Filth and to a lesser extent Chelsea. But my gripe witj Mancini has always been more about the mindset of the manager and the negative and overly cautious approach to many games.


So Laudrup rebuilt a 1st place team into a 2nd place team?

To me, Mancini always had the mindset of a win-at-all costs manager (like Mourinho or baconface). There are very few people in fotball that I think have a deeper desire to win than Mancini. He many not have always had the tactics or man-management to back it up, but his mindset was always top notch.

Your feelings against Mancini stems from something illogical and grew into ridiculous proportions. You give other managers the benefit of the doubt when Mancini would get endless criticism if he were in the same situation. It is pointless to talk with you about anything remotely related to Mancini (say for example a new manager to replace him) because you went so far off the deep end in wanting him out that you bamboozled yourself.


Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Thu May 30, 2013 5:08 am

Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


I'm not sure what is wrong with you folk and your ability to read. I actually liked his public persona. I have said this on numerous occasions. What I didn't like was his style of football.
Even now when the club have spelled out the reasons for dismissing him it still seems you can't grasp it. It's the same stuff that I, Sparty, Carl, Ted and others have been saying for some time.
And even the Mancini "lickers" will happily admit (in general) that his substitutiions, man management, tactics and many of his signings have been poor. From what has emerged since it is not unreasonable to say he had lost the dressing room. What else is there left in management?
I make no apologies for my criticisms of him, and feel that they are fully justified. You'll not be in the slightest surprised to know I'm pleased the club could see it too. I sincerely hope their judgement on the new man is correct. But for now I feel fully vindicated in my arguments.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby zuricity » Thu May 30, 2013 5:11 am

Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


Don't understand your use of a strong word like 'malign' for Laudrup, unless I am not seeing your humour there . I think the ridiculous ott critisism of Mancini is where the malignancy comes in .
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Thu May 30, 2013 5:23 am

Cocacolajojo wrote:So I take it all of you in this here thread are avid followers of the Danish football system?

You're seriously discussing his merits based on his time in the Danish league which is the final destination of players that are too good for the Swedish league but not good enough for the Dutch league and a stepping stone for players that(mostly) end of populating the first division of the Dutch, Swiss and Austrian leagues. A league that like all of the Scandinavian leagues is a lot about luck and where a season is often decided on whether the title contenders get to keep their star players during the transfer window that interrupts the season.

Mind you I'm willing to applaud any team that snatches the league trophy away from FC Copenhagen (the financial super power of that league) but before anyone mentions Bröndby in the CL, they have to remember that those years were also very good for the Danish league in general, with good agent connections into the African player-market. The league had a market advantage that has since decreased to some extent. The financial advantages over Sweden that enabled Danish clubs to take the best from our precious Allsvenska has also decreased since, because of changes in government and the tax-cuts that followed.

What happened to Bröndby after Laudrup went has nothing to do with his absense. It should also be rememberd that he had a financial backing that most of his predecessors and successors wasn't and hasn't been able to enjoy.

By all means debate, but it might be wise not to put too much value on wins made in any Scandinavian league. Our leagues are full of managers that win them but aren't former superstars and not much becomes of them. That a former superstar who spent a good chunk of his career in Spain then went to Spain to manage should probably not be seen as a result only based on merit and if Laudrup hadn't spent his decent (not succesful) season at Getafe, we might not have heard more about him than that he got fired from some mildly interesting job in the Netherlands or Denmark.

The main discussion point should probably be if he's been able to reciprocate his early successes outside of Denmark. Has he?


I bow to your superior knowledge of Danish football, however, we are all very familiar here with English foorball and yet still vastly different opinions are given on the subject.
What is fair to say is that Laudrup was successful and adored at Brondby.
Your question has he achieved outside Denmark is easy to answer. Of course he has. What he has accomplished in English football is already remarkable. To win a trophy with Swansea
Is something no other manager has done, nor did any of us expect. Their league placing was a superb effort on such a limited budget. His time in Spain can only be judged as a success too. At Brondby he had a chance to win and did. In the Prem he didn't, but and yet still managed it.
Most importantly, wherever he has been in charge he has played stylish football. Real Madrid have reportedly been sniffing round and yet still some won't see he has the ability for a top job.
Amd finally, his reputation as a top calibre player gets him a lot of respect within the game, not that I'm saying that is any guarentee or an absolute necessity, but it certainly helps when dealing with modern players with their over inflated egos. I have no doubt that were he to be appointed at City (which looks unlikely now) he would be a success. Not a candidate to be dismissed just because he cut his teeth in management in Denmark. There have been well respected managers who have plied their trade in Scandinavia,
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Socrates » Thu May 30, 2013 5:34 am

zuricity wrote:
Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


Don't understand your use of a strong word like 'malign' for Laudrup, unless I am not seeing your humour there . I think the ridiculous ott critisism of Mancini is where the malignancy comes in .


Fair point, replace with "pull apart" or some such.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Socrates » Thu May 30, 2013 5:36 am

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:
Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


I'm not sure what is wrong with you folk and your ability to read. I actually liked his public persona. I have said this on numerous occasions. What I didn't like was his style of football.
Even now when the club have spelled out the reasons for dismissing him it still seems you can't grasp it. It's the same stuff that I, Sparty, Carl, Ted and others have been saying for some time.
And even the Mancini "lickers" will happily admit (in general) that his substitutiions, man management, tactics and many of his signings have been poor. From what has emerged since it is not unreasonable to say he had lost the dressing room. What else is there left in management?
I make no apologies for my criticisms of him, and feel that they are fully justified. You'll not be in the slightest surprised to know I'm pleased the club could see it too. I sincerely hope their judgement on the new man is correct. But for now I feel fully vindicated in my arguments.


The club have spelled nothing out as far as I have seen, you are confusing supposed "in the know" journalism with reality. You may need to look up "reality" as your grasp on it is so slim.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Blue Oli » Thu May 30, 2013 5:40 am

Danish football 101 - welcome all
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Piccsnumberoneblue » Thu May 30, 2013 5:53 am

Socrates wrote:
The club have spelled nothing out as far as I have seen, you are confusing supposed "in the know" journalism with reality. You may need to look up "reality" as your grasp on it is so slim.


Nothing whatsoever to do with "in the know" journalism. Soriano explained it at length.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby mr_nool » Thu May 30, 2013 5:57 am

Cocacolajojo wrote:So I take it all of you in this here thread are avid followers of the Danish football system?

You're seriously discussing his merits based on his time in the Danish league which is the final destination of players that are too good for the Swedish league but not good enough for the Dutch league and a stepping stone for players that(mostly) end of populating the first division of the Dutch, Swiss and Austrian leagues. A league that like all of the Scandinavian leagues is a lot about luck and where a season is often decided on whether the title contenders get to keep their star players during the transfer window that interrupts the season.

Mind you I'm willing to applaud any team that snatches the league trophy away from FC Copenhagen (the financial super power of that league) but before anyone mentions Bröndby in the CL, they have to remember that those years were also very good for the Danish league in general, with good agent connections into the African player-market. The league had a market advantage that has since decreased to some extent. The financial advantages over Sweden that enabled Danish clubs to take the best from our precious Allsvenska has also decreased since, because of changes in government and the tax-cuts that followed.

What happened to Bröndby after Laudrup went has nothing to do with his absense. It should also be rememberd that he had a financial backing that most of his predecessors and successors wasn't and hasn't been able to enjoy.

By all means debate, but it might be wise not to put too much value on wins made in any Scandinavian league. Our leagues are full of managers that win them but aren't former superstars and not much becomes of them. That a former superstar who spent a good chunk of his career in Spain then went to Spain to manage should probably not be seen as a result only based on merit and if Laudrup hadn't spent his decent (not succesful) season at Getafe, we might not have heard more about him than that he got fired from some mildly interesting job in the Netherlands or Denmark.

The main discussion point should probably be if he's been able to reciprocate his early successes outside of Denmark. Has he?


Good post mate. Just one little thing: The Danish league is played autumn to spring, just like most other European leagues. It's only the Swedish, Norwegian and Finish that are played spring to autumn. I.E. the transfer window does not happen in the middle of the season.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Thu May 30, 2013 9:32 am

mr_nool wrote:
Cocacolajojo wrote:So I take it all of you in this here thread are avid followers of the Danish football system?

You're seriously discussing his merits based on his time in the Danish league which is the final destination of players that are too good for the Swedish league but not good enough for the Dutch league and a stepping stone for players that(mostly) end of populating the first division of the Dutch, Swiss and Austrian leagues. A league that like all of the Scandinavian leagues is a lot about luck and where a season is often decided on whether the title contenders get to keep their star players during the transfer window that interrupts the season.

Mind you I'm willing to applaud any team that snatches the league trophy away from FC Copenhagen (the financial super power of that league) but before anyone mentions Bröndby in the CL, they have to remember that those years were also very good for the Danish league in general, with good agent connections into the African player-market. The league had a market advantage that has since decreased to some extent. The financial advantages over Sweden that enabled Danish clubs to take the best from our precious Allsvenska has also decreased since, because of changes in government and the tax-cuts that followed.

What happened to Bröndby after Laudrup went has nothing to do with his absense. It should also be rememberd that he had a financial backing that most of his predecessors and successors wasn't and hasn't been able to enjoy.

By all means debate, but it might be wise not to put too much value on wins made in any Scandinavian league. Our leagues are full of managers that win them but aren't former superstars and not much becomes of them. That a former superstar who spent a good chunk of his career in Spain then went to Spain to manage should probably not be seen as a result only based on merit and if Laudrup hadn't spent his decent (not succesful) season at Getafe, we might not have heard more about him than that he got fired from some mildly interesting job in the Netherlands or Denmark.

The main discussion point should probably be if he's been able to reciprocate his early successes outside of Denmark. Has he?


Good post mate. Just one little thing: The Danish league is played autumn to spring, just like most other European leagues. It's only the Swedish, Norwegian and Finish that are played spring to autumn. I.E. the transfer window does not happen in the middle of the season.


I know, but the Danes dread the winter window as we dread the summer window.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Thu May 30, 2013 9:40 am

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:I bow to your superior knowledge of Danish football, however, we are all very familiar here with English foorball and yet still vastly different opinions are given on the subject.
What is fair to say is that Laudrup was successful and adored at Brondby.


Yes and quite rightly. He won the league twice in what, like four years, plus the cup. It was also helped by the fact that he had an assistant manager which was very liked by the fans.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Amd finally, his reputation as a top calibre player gets him a lot of respect within the game, not that I'm saying that is any guarentee or an absolute necessity, but it certainly helps when dealing with modern players with their over inflated egos. I have no doubt that were he to be appointed at City (which looks unlikely now) he would be a success. Not a candidate to be dismissed just because he cut his teeth in management in Denmark. There have been well respected managers who have plied their trade in Scandinavia,


No of course not, we can't go around dissing people who've won any of the Scandinavian leagues just because our leagues are awkwardly based in the European league hierarchy and that wasn't my point either. A win is a win is a win is a win. I was just saying that league trophees should be treated with a bit of skepticism as our leagues are often determined by such small marginals and sometimes even coincidences.

It felt like this debate was getting a bit bogged down on whether his league wins in Denmark was worth anything. My point was merely that yes they are, if one can argue that he's kept going since he left Denmark. Which you did. Fair enough. But you forget that Swansea didn't have to face the mighty Wigan in their League cup-run. And there is no Wigan in Spain.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Mikhail Chigorin » Thu May 30, 2013 11:16 am

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:
Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


I'm not sure what is wrong with you folk and your ability to read. I actually liked his public persona. I have said this on numerous occasions. What I didn't like was his style of football.
Even now when the club have spelled out the reasons for dismissing him it still seems you can't grasp it. It's the same stuff that I, Sparty, Carl, Ted and others have been saying for some time.
And even the Mancini "lickers" will happily admit (in general) that his substitutiions, man management, tactics and many of his signings have been poor. From what has emerged since it is not unreasonable to say he had lost the dressing room. What else is there left in management?
I make no apologies for my criticisms of him, and feel that they are fully justified. You'll not be in the slightest surprised to know I'm pleased the club could see it too. I sincerely hope their judgement on the new man is correct. But for now I feel fully vindicated in my arguments.


I suppose I fall into the category of being a "Mancini licker", as you so euphemistically term it. However, please don't decide for me what I will be happy to admit, or what I won't be happy to admit.

If you had written something along the lines of "I surmise that even the Mancini lickers will happily admit....." or, possibly ; "In my opinion, I feel the Mancini lickers will happily admit....." , I wouldn't take issue with any such statement as you were expressing your own valuable and potentially valid opinion. However, it just seems that the format of the statement you made takes away (or attempts to take away) my own capabilities of independent thought, were I desirous of entering this particular debate.

I don't wish to cause offence or argue this matter 'ad nauseam', but please don't be so tendentious on my behalf, or anyone else for that matter, who might hold a different viewpoint to yourself.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Socrates » Thu May 30, 2013 1:13 pm

Mikhail Chigorin wrote:
Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:
Socrates wrote:
Accurate description of ridiculously over the top criticisms of Mancini (how anyone can passionately hate a coach that delivered our first trophy in 35 years and our first title in over 40 years is still beyond belief) but unfair to malign the record of a top young coach just to make your point.


I'm not sure what is wrong with you folk and your ability to read. I actually liked his public persona. I have said this on numerous occasions. What I didn't like was his style of football.
Even now when the club have spelled out the reasons for dismissing him it still seems you can't grasp it. It's the same stuff that I, Sparty, Carl, Ted and others have been saying for some time.
And even the Mancini "lickers" will happily admit (in general) that his substitutiions, man management, tactics and many of his signings have been poor. From what has emerged since it is not unreasonable to say he had lost the dressing room. What else is there left in management?
I make no apologies for my criticisms of him, and feel that they are fully justified. You'll not be in the slightest surprised to know I'm pleased the club could see it too. I sincerely hope their judgement on the new man is correct. But for now I feel fully vindicated in my arguments.


I suppose I fall into the category of being a "Mancini licker", as you so euphemistically term it. However, please don't decide for me what I will be happy to admit, or what I won't be happy to admit.

If you had written something along the lines of "I surmise that even the Mancini lickers will happily admit....." or, possibly ; "In my opinion, I feel the Mancini lickers will happily admit....." , I wouldn't take issue with any such statement as you were expressing your own valuable and potentially valid opinion. However, it just seems that the format of the statement you made takes away (or attempts to take away) my own capabilities of independent thought, were I desirous of entering this particular debate.

I don't wish to cause offence or argue this matter 'ad nauseam', but please don't be so tendentious on my behalf, or anyone else for that matter, who might hold a different viewpoint to yourself.


Well said old chap. A certain someone seems sadly incapable of understanding the impact of opposition tactics on how we play and seemingly cannot conceive of the idea that others may have a different opinion.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby BlueinBosnia » Thu May 30, 2013 1:41 pm

Socrates wrote:A certain someone seems sadly incapable of understanding the impact of opposition tactics on how we play and seemingly cannot conceive of the idea that others may have a different opinion.

Those were my main criticisms of Mancini, too.
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Re: Swansea need 200m to improve -Laudrup

Postby Socrates » Thu May 30, 2013 1:42 pm

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:
Socrates wrote:
The club have spelled nothing out as far as I have seen, you are confusing supposed "in the know" journalism with reality. You may need to look up "reality" as your grasp on it is so slim.


Nothing whatsoever to do with "in the know" journalism. Soriano explained it at length.


Nothing I read did more than give some spin, guess you read what you want like you see what you want...
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