Guidetti and EDS

[simplytolmie]

I was hoping like many City fans that this season we would see John Guidetti make it into the squad as the 4th choice striker. Having now signed Negredo and Jovetic this seems to have fallen away.

I started to wonder about the EDS and what is the point of it. I understand the efforts we are going to producing a new academy placing Vieira in charge. Like many City fans I've heard this before, leaving the EDS at Platt Lane to "focus" etc.

I had a look through the EDS graduates since 1999, which is only 14 years ago. Since then i reckon that we've at most had 15 players per year graduate this is 210 players. From this list there are 43 who have made a first team appearance be it 1 game or 300 games. When you break this down there are only 3 I would say made a place in the team their own for a sustained period - SWP, Ireland and Richards.

There are 10 with the Jury being out for now - Boyata, Ibrahim, Niemly, Guidetti, Razak, Wabara, Rekik, Scapuzzi, Suarez and Lopes. If we are all honest probably move this to Guidetti, Rekik, Suarez and Lopes with a genuine chance of getting through.

There are 8 who have made it elsewhere - Barton, Etuhu, Mears, Flood, Whelan, Onouha, Sturridge and Weiss.

There are a further 22 who have gone off the radar into lower leagues.

This I think is an appalling state of affairs and one that is echoed throughout the game.

I can't help feeling that we as a club want instant success and following the "holistic" statements we made earlier this year it gave me hope for Guidetti but now looks destined to go on loan again. If we didn't buy Negredo or Jovetic or bought them and sold Dzeko couldn't Guidetti do a job? I think he has shown in Holland at a very young age he's capable. With day to day exposure to playing against Vinny and Jolen we would learn and then when required might take his chance. If he does he'll save the club fortunes and become a real hero of the fans.

I just thought it was interesting to look at Guidetti as a good case as soon it will be Suarez and Lopes trying to get into the squad and I'd hate to think they will be wasted talents too.

[twosips]

If Guidetti showed any signs of being fit and reliable he'd have been seen as the 4th striker this season. Sadly he's a sicknote as it currently stands and too much of a risk.

There will be a huge, huge push in the next couple of years with the academy i think as they'll look to integrate players within this more or less complete squad now.

[MilnersJaw]

Eds reminds me of ED every time I see it.

[Dwaring]

I think jovetic is being considered as a attacking midfielder as well as a striker. So he may get his chances as a 4th option. I know most of us are pulling for him.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

I think jovetic is being considered as a attacking midfielder as well as a striker. So he may get his chances as a 4th option. I know most of us are pulling for him.

First priority is for John to get fit and I mean properly fit.Once that's done and proven he needs a loan spell with someone in a top division somewhere where he is guaranteed plenty of game time.Then and only then will we have a real clue whether he has a chance with City as a striker.

[gillie]

Right don't go bonkers at me as this is just my opinion.Guidetti scored a lot for Feyenord but they are in one of the easiest leagues in the world for a striker.Let's face it Samarass looked the dogs danglies in Holland.What i am trying to say is perhaps John just won't cut it in the Premier League and perhaps our new Manager also thinks the same.
Sorry Doug did'nt see you post before i posted mine.

[Nigels Tackle]

I think jovetic is being considered as a attacking midfielder as well as a striker. So he may get his chances as a 4th option. I know most of us are pulling for him.

re jovetic... like isco would have been had he signed?

[twosips]

There is nothing more to it than what Doug said. It's as simple as that. It still baffles me that people are even actually asking this question.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

Personally, I think peoples' frustration over Guidetti stems directly from the dry spell of Academy graduates.

It's been a while since we've been able to get excited about a new Academy player, especially a forward thinking one. These players always seem to get some extra love from the fans; SWP, Ireland and Michael Johnson are the most three recent that immediately spring to mind. I think fans enjoy the thought of a player who has been at the club for years breaking through and making it. It also might give that player a little more respect for the club as well as keeping fans safe in the knowledge that the club is operating sound throughout.

There's been a big void at the club for breakthrough stars. You hear stories about Guidetti getting two thousand goals in a season in Holland and he automatically becomes the guy people want to see.

Fact is though a lot of people are watching players like him every day and you have to put your trust in them as to whether players like Guidetti can step up. I was really disappointed we didn't see more Academy players in dead games towards the end of last season. I've kind of given up on things people like Doug say about the Academy too because I just think fuck it, they'll all be playing for Oldham in 2 years.

As someone said the Academy will simply have to step up. The investment won't be there just to look good. Though it will take time and, before then, we might have to admit that the current crop just aren't good enough for where the club is currently at.

[Twobob]

When you break this down there are only 3 I would say made a place in the team their own for a sustained period - SWP, Ireland and Richards.


There are 8 who have made it elsewhere - Barton, Etuhu, Mears, Flood, Whelan, Onouha, Sturridge and Weiss.

Firstly, it is common knowledge amongst most, but maybe not all, that JG has been injured, as Doug quite rightly mentioned he needs to get a prolonged level of fitness and prove himself.

The stakes are much higher now than they were when we brought Barton, Ireland, Flood etc through - we needed to do too as we had no cash to purchase players.

I have to disagree with the above statements though, Ireland played c.138 games for us and Barton c.130, i would not say that Ireland was a major success here apart from 1 season, and Barton certainly hasn't made it elsewhere any better than at City, in fact i would say that Barton would have still been here if we hadn't sacked him off for violent conduct (thanks fat sam for buying him!)

I wouldn't say any of the others have made it exactly at the same level as we where or are currently - only Sturridge could say he played for a top club in a top league, and he left because we wouldn't pay silly wages and he wanted to move to London, the rest couldn't cut it at the level we were at and they certainly couldn't cut it at the level we're at now.

If they are good enough they will shine through, one thing i do believe is that kids should avoid big club youth academies at all costs and get game time under their belts at lower division clubs like Crew.

[Dameerto]

We could do with a partnership with a club like Brentford. Send Ewe a few hopefuls and get them some serious match time. (Guidetti needs a higher standard than that though, I'd like to see him loaned to a Prem club or maybe a Bundesliga team once he is fully fit)

[AG7]

The OP is confused or at least hasn't put the question across properly ...

What do you want us to discuss? That the academy isn't good enough in producing anything of substance? (your nos. breakdown surely points to that) ... or you are saying that because we want immediate success, we keep buying ready first team players which doesn't allow (good academy produce) to come up??

It has to be an either/or ... I think it's the first, academy hasn't been good enough ... now with all that investment going into academy in terms of facilities and with PV in charge we can probably start seeing some good lads coming up in say 5-7 years time ... so till then will the club keep importing experience into the first team, I'm pretty sure they will ...

John as of now is not good enough ... and our first team isn't of the same standard of 5 years ago ... for someone to break into this from the ranks below will have to meet the new standard too ... simples!

[ant london]

Early early days I know but I have a suspicion that Pozo will end up seeing a lot more first team game time than Guidetti.

The two I think lots had high hopes for in Razak and Rekik have a pretty important season coming up. Hopefully they won't "do a Dedryk"....on their loans (which I assume is where Abdul will head).

I think, however, that the criticism from the OP is somewhat late or just ill-timed as there do seem to be a few at the senior end of the academy (from everything those who watch the younger teams have said) who look to be of quite significantly higher quality than we've seen since Johnson/Ireland/Onuoha etc broke through (Micah being the exception)....Evans, Huws, Rusnak, Pozo, Lopez....and is that kid Alex Henshall not involved now and Brian Gunn's son.

Still needs to move consistently up a level across the board but with the success of the first team, profile of the club and now the facilities we can offer to kids and to get their parents' buy in....I think we are going to be very well placed.

The willingness of Pellegrini hopefully to blood some kids and maybe his faith in Vieira could also be an exciting new dimension.

So, for me the griping was due over the past years but is now unjustified/premature in view of the current state of affairs

[Cit.revenge]

I m reading now Swansea wants Guidetti on loan. I think it's better to let him finally play a bit to see it to adjust to the league than lose another season somewhere in the club.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I find the OP somewhat strange. Before the takeover we had steady flood of youngsters coming in the first team and we got some money for lot of the other players meaning the Academy took financially care of itself. Now after the takeover the focus completely shifted and we were planning to produce some truly world class players by bringing VERY young top talent in and "breeding" them ourselves. Unfortunately it seems that first draft of the Academy organisation after Cassell sackikg were not up for the job and that's why Vieira is in charge now.

[Im_Spartacus]

I find the OP somewhat strange. Before the takeover we had steady flood of youngsters coming in the first team and we got some money for lot of the other players meaning the Academy took financially care of itself. Now after the takeover the focus completely shifted and we were planning to produce some truly world class players by bringing VERY young top talent in and "breeding" them ourselves. Unfortunately it seems that first draft of the Academy organisation after Cassell sackikg were not up for the job and that's why Vieira is in charge now.

I agree entirely with your final sentence, people irrationally long for kids to be given a chance who in my view, dont appear to have earned that chance.

The current crop have nobody currently ready who stands out. Suarez for example, does not impress me, does not stand out when with his peers with Spain under 20s, so why people would be pushing for his inclusion in a premier league team mystifies me.

Guidetti, as has been cpvered at length elsewhere has had some pretty big injury problems to overcome before he can even consider being ready, and as someone else has raised the point, a year in holland is one thing, but a step up from that would be a year in the championship - incidentally where guidetti played the season before and was completely forgettable according to the burnley fans I know. He needs another bash at the championship before even getting a sniff.

I just dont understand people who would risk a players development by giving him 10 minute cameos here and there in dead fixtures, when their real development will happen playing week in week out with seasoned pros.

Although it would be nice as a club to see some of those on the fringe of a breakthrough male the odd appearance,,for me we dont have any who are actually deserving of that chance right now, and i actually back mancinis stance last season although the dead rubbers could have been used to gain some experience and exposure for some of them, withoutnharming our league position.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I find the OP somewhat strange. Before the takeover we had steady flood of youngsters coming in the first team and we got some money for lot of the other players meaning the Academy took financially care of itself. Now after the takeover the focus completely shifted and we were planning to produce some truly world class players by bringing VERY young top talent in and "breeding" them ourselves. Unfortunately it seems that first draft of the Academy organisation after Cassell sackikg were not up for the job and that's why Vieira is in charge now.

I agree entirely with your final sentence, people irrationally long for kids to be given a chance who in my view, dont appear to have earned that chance.

The current crop have nobody currently ready who stands out. Suarez for example, does not impress me, does not stand out when with his peers with Spain under 20s, so why people would be pushing for his inclusion in a premier league team mystifies me.

Guidetti, as has been cpvered at length elsewhere has had some pretty big injury problems to overcome before he can even consider being ready, and as someone else has raised the point, a year in holland is one thing, but a step up from that would be a year in the championship - incidentally where guidetti played the season before and was completely forgettable according to the burnley fans I know. He needs another bash at the championship before even getting a sniff.

I just dont understand people who would risk a players development by giving him 10 minute cameos here and there in dead fixtures, when their real development will happen playing week in week out with seasoned pros.

Although it would be nice as a club to see some of those on the fringe of a breakthrough male the odd appearance,,for me we dont have any who are actually deserving of that chance right now, and i actually back mancinis stance last season although the dead rubbers could have been used to gain some experience and exposure for some of them, withoutnharming our league position.

I made a thread about that few weeks back. It's pretty easy to say that "I want youngsters to be given a chance". I mean, who doesn't? But there has to be youngsters who are actually worth the chance. Now we are a top 2 club that is aiming to compete at all fronts. That's the sort of talent we are looking for. We have youngsters who could well be usefull for lower mid-table club but we are not one. For me, there's no point throwing them in there if they don't have TALENT to ever succeed at that level.

We have great example of talent I'm talking about in our own first team squad, Nastasic. Now that is the kind of player we should be aiming to produce ourselves. Sure he lacks/lacked exprience and that showed at times but you could also see flashes of genuine world class talent.

Now I know for a fact that we have been able to attract couple of top talents in their age group in early teens yet (so far) we haven't been able to turn them into end product. All the pieces are in place but some of the cogs don't seem to be running right. As long as they aren't working there's no point throwing games just for the sake of supporters who scream for youngsters to be given chance. What more, these same people would scream even louder if we lost the games.

[Ted Hughes]

The raw talent hasn't been there. Imo the coaching hasn't been there either. The rags have been getting more out of mediocre players because their system has been a kind of simple, British, version of the one we are putting into place.

That's the benefit of having that old cunt in charge for so long; the youth coaches know exactly what the kids have to learn in order to do a job for the first team, so even bang average ones can come in & fill gaps in the squad.

Many of them could also cross a ball & take a free kick. Ours came out totally unprepared for 1st team football.

I noticed on the OS, kids putting in crosses & one firing Drogba style free kicks over the wall.

We now have raw talent, a system, & actual footballers in charge of developing it.

We don't neccessarily have any teams but we have an almost frightening array of potential. Loads of utter fucking dickheads will judge the initial success on how kany games or trophies the kids win & be moaning about it on here if it isn't great,but all I care about is producing players & I recon the management not only hope, but actually expect some of these lads to be in the first team.

They are leaving a gap for them by the age group they have been signing, 27 year olds etc. There will be huge opportunity for these kids to grab a place as the current squad ages.