yids

[Florida Blue]

I have a very good friend who is a Jewish Spurs supporter, so I just called him and asked him about. On one hand it is expected because it is something that he and his dad have heard all their lives. On the other hand it is both offensive to him and shows the ignorance of a lot of people who use it, as it is a very derogatory term, and people just aren't sensitive.

I mentioned to him what john@staustell had said about what Paki is to Pakistanis, and while similar, he said that refers to ethnicity, whereas "yid" is a religious slur. For anyone to call it overly PC, maybe it is, but to a lot of Jewish people it is clearly a sensitive term.

I don't get the 'religious' reference at all.

Pretty simple actually... Yids is short for Yiddish which is a German based language spoken by Jews. So if you carry it through the logic, it is a religious reference.

It is used as a derogatory term by racists to describe Jewish people & has no religious connotations whatsoever for the users. Many won't even know it represents a language. It is just the same as the words used against black & asian people as in the example you gave him.

Ok explain this to me, what does the term "Jewish" describe??? Jewish is not a people, it is a a religion, therefor it is a religious epithet. Jewish isn't a nationality, and this is where there is a disconnect. There are French Jews and French Catholics, there is no such thing as a Jewish Jew. Black and Asian describe ethnicity, there are black Jews, white Jews, etc. There are Asians that are Buddhists and some that are Christian.

[Ted Hughes]

I have a very good friend who is a Jewish Spurs supporter, so I just called him and asked him about. On one hand it is expected because it is something that he and his dad have heard all their lives. On the other hand it is both offensive to him and shows the ignorance of a lot of people who use it, as it is a very derogatory term, and people just aren't sensitive.

I mentioned to him what john@staustell had said about what Paki is to Pakistanis, and while similar, he said that refers to ethnicity, whereas "yid" is a religious slur. For anyone to call it overly PC, maybe it is, but to a lot of Jewish people it is clearly a sensitive term.

I don't get the 'religious' reference at all.

Pretty simple actually... Yids is short for Yiddish which is a German based language spoken by Jews. So if you carry it through the logic, it is a religious reference.

It is used as a derogatory term by racists to describe Jewish people & has no religious connotations whatsoever for the users. Many won't even know it represents a language. It is just the same as the words used against black & asian people as in the example you gave him.

Ok explain this to me, what does the term "Jewish" describe??? Jewish is not a people, it is a a religion, therefor it is a religious epithet. Jewish isn't a nationality, and this is where there is a disconnect. There are French Jews and French Catholics, there is no such thing as a Jewish Jew. Black and Asian describe ethnicity, there are black Jews, white Jews, etc. There are Asians that are Buddhists and some that are Christian.

But the religion isn't the target, it's the individuals who practice it, because they are seen as different. In the same way that an Indian bloke will get called a 'Paki'. Most of these characters are not interested in details of why.

[BlueMoonAwoken]

oh dear religion.

[Florida Blue]

<null>

Oh yes intent, not the perception of those who might find it offensive makes it perfectly acceptable. Who knew?

[Ted Hughes]

<null>

Oh yes intent, not the perception of those who might find it offensive makes it perfectly acceptable. Who knew?

Why are you suggesting that I said it's perfectly acceptable ?

Where have i posted ANYTHING that gives you the right to accuse me of that ?

People like you do so much harm to give ammunition to the 'oh it's pc gone mad' brigade by being unable to have a civil conversation about the subject without making disgusting, unwarrented, insulting suggestions.

You, & people like you, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Fuck off.

[london blue 2]

My friend is a gay Jewish Pakistani...

I just call him a cunt.

[Florida Blue]

<null>

Oh yes intent, not the perception of those who might find it offensive makes it perfectly acceptable. Who knew?

Why are you suggesting that I said it's perfectly acceptable ?

Where have i posted ANYTHING that gives you the right to accuse me of that ?

People like you do so much harm to give ammunition to the 'oh it's pc gone mad' brigade by being unable to have a civil conversation about the subject without making disgusting, unwarrented, insulting suggestions.

You, & people like you, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Fuck off.

See that is the problem, you use the word "civil" and you are just full of anger and hate. I said a Jewish person found it offensive, why must you debate it? He is a Jew, it is derogatory in his mind, why do you think this is debatable? And since when have you ever been civil on here? You are so full of hate, among full of other things.

And "fuck off?" Stay classy.

[Ted Hughes]

<null>

Oh yes intent, not the perception of those who might find it offensive makes it perfectly acceptable. Who knew?

Why are you suggesting that I said it's perfectly acceptable ?

Where have i posted ANYTHING that gives you the right to accuse me of that ?

People like you do so much harm to give ammunition to the 'oh it's pc gone mad' brigade by being unable to have a civil conversation about the subject without making disgusting, unwarrented, insulting suggestions.

You, & people like you, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Fuck off.

See that is the problem, you use the word "civil" and you are just full of anger and hate. I said a Jewish person found it offensive, why must you debate it? He is a Jew, it is derogatory in his mind, why do you think this is debatable? And since when have you ever been civil on here? You are so full of hate, among full of other things.

And "fuck off?" Stay classy.

Because we were having a discussion you lowlife shithouse, & until your uncalled for insinuation, it was a 'civil' one.

Thats what the thread is for; DISCUSSION. I was talking about the thinking behind people who use racist language & because either you don't agree or don't understand what I meant, you decide to play the race card against me just to be 'one up' in the discussion. What an utter slimeball.

Wankers who do that kind of thing, well I fucking hate that, you're right; I despise it. You cheapen the whole issue & it just shows what kind of person you are, & how utterly useless you would be in a real argument against people who actually do think like that. You are part of the problem.

And I repeat: fuck off.

[Cocacolajojo1]

I guess it all depends on what the TOttenham Supporters are doesn't it? There used to be a lot of jewish supporters but I'm guessing that's not the case anymore is it?

If there was a team with an almost entirely gay support, it'd be ok for me if that fanbase referred to themselves as faggots or queers. But if that fanbase then evolved into an almost entirely straight fanbase over the years, I could see why gay people would find the chants disturbing. And this is the core of the problem here as well isn't it?

We should've signed Nir Biton, he would have explained all this to us.

[MilnersJaw]

Daniel levy is Jewish and he approves the yid army.

[Pedro1006]

This gets to the core of being a supporter. Team support is for the most part tribal and always has been. Take away the tribal reference and all remains is history and the spectacle on show.

Tribal chanting was all about being as offensive as you can to the opposition team and supporters. Sometimes the chants can be very funny, particularly if they drift over in to irony.

Yid Army: a popular refrain from all Tottenham supporters of which I would suggest few are Jewish.

Arsenal supporters: "You dirty Northern bastards" sung towards Bristol City players.

City supporters to Liverpool supporters : "You see a dead rat and you think it's a treat"! etc.

All supporters when Beckham played, "Your wife takes it up the arse, when you play away".

It is all about the camaraderie of the tribe. It has largely dissipated in recent years as football has changed from a cheap spectacle, but you still get it as an away supporter. For all of my 40 years as a City supporter, the away games have often been the most enjoyable even if the result went against us. Watching on the tele is nothing like the thrill of a real game in so many ways.

Boys like to have fun and trade insults, but for the most part the insults are not based on hatred.

[john@staustell]

Course it's not an insult.

Brit is short for British and Paki is short for Pakistani. Why is one apparently 'racist' when all it is, is a shortened term.

It may be an abbreviation, but, like 'Paki', it's generally been used as a derogatory term. I've never heard a crowd sing 'you're just a town full of Brits'.

Not yet mate.

But is 'your just a town full of Pakistanis' offensive then? The chant is aimed at white supporters in a town with a large migrant-origin population, not at people of Pakistani origin themselves. Far too sensitive some people.

[Florida Blue]

<null>

Oh yes intent, not the perception of those who might find it offensive makes it perfectly acceptable. Who knew?

Why are you suggesting that I said it's perfectly acceptable ?

Where have i posted ANYTHING that gives you the right to accuse me of that ?

People like you do so much harm to give ammunition to the 'oh it's pc gone mad' brigade by being unable to have a civil conversation about the subject without making disgusting, unwarrented, insulting suggestions.

You, & people like you, are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Fuck off.

See that is the problem, you use the word "civil" and you are just full of anger and hate. I said a Jewish person found it offensive, why must you debate it? He is a Jew, it is derogatory in his mind, why do you think this is debatable? And since when have you ever been civil on here? You are so full of hate, among full of other things.

And "fuck off?" Stay classy.

Because we were having a discussion you lowlife shithouse, & until your uncalled for insinuation, it was a 'civil' one.

Thats what the thread is for; DISCUSSION. I was talking about the thinking behind people who use racist language & because either you don't agree or don't understand what I meant, you decide to play the race card against me just to be 'one up' in the discussion. What an utter slimeball.

Wankers who do that kind of thing, well I fucking hate that, you're right; I despise it. You cheapen the whole issue & it just shows what kind of person you are, & how utterly useless you would be in a real argument against people who actually do think like that. You are part of the problem.

And I repeat: fuck off.

If you go through this thread, you are the one with the anger and hate. You don't even know the issue. "Race card?" Clearly you like to rant, pretend you are educated, and like to degrade others. I cheapen the issue? That is your opinion, which you seem to be full of. I offer you cheapen this website.

[Blue Since 76]

Not yet mate.

But is 'your just a town full of Pakistanis' offensive then? The chant is aimed at white supporters in a town with a large migrant-origin population, not at people of Pakistani origin themselves. Far too sensitive some people.

It's sung at teams as a derogatory term, therefore the insinuation is that having ethnic people in your town is a bad thing. I'd say that was pretty offensive if you weren't white

[Ted Hughes]

If you go through this thread, you are the one with the anger and hate. You don't even know the issue. "Race card?" Clearly you like to rant, pretend you are educated, and like to degrade others. I cheapen the issue? That is your opinion, which you seem to be full of. I offer you cheapen this website.

Find one quote of mine with any 'anger' or 'hate' before you basically accused me of racism, you utter cunt.

Quote it.

I offer that if you can't find one, you are a lowlife, lying shitstain.

[Rag_hater]

This gets to the core of being a supporter. Team support is for the most part tribal and always has been. Take away the tribal reference and all remains is history and the spectacle on show.

Tribal chanting was all about being as offensive as you can to the opposition team and supporters. Sometimes the chants can be very funny, particularly if they drift over in to irony.

Yid Army: a popular refrain from all Tottenham supporters of which I would suggest few are Jewish.

Arsenal supporters: "You dirty Northern bastards" sung towards Bristol City players.

City supporters to Liverpool supporters : "You see a dead rat and you think it's a treat"! etc.

All supporters when Beckham played, "Your wife takes it up the arse, when you play away".

It is all about the camaraderie of the tribe. It has largely dissipated in recent years as football has changed from a cheap spectacle, but you still get it as an away supporter. For all of my 40 years as a City supporter, the away games have often been the most enjoyable even if the result went against us. Watching on the tele is nothing like the thrill of a real game in so many ways.

Boys like to have fun and trade insults, but for the most part the insults are not based on hatred.

It's a lot safer and for me has got the thrill that people who go get.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I'm Jewish and have a lot of mates who are Spurs fans and tbh nearly all of them embrace the term 'yids' and chant it themselves ironically.

Football matches bring out the worst in people. FACT! In fact how many of us have been at a game and in the het of the moment shouted out something derogaraty/ racist and then when we're calmed down we feel almost embarrassed?

[BlueinBosnia]

Ok explain this to me, what does the term "Jewish" describe??? Jewish is not a people, it is a a religion, therefor it is a religious epithet.

I'll call you up on that: 'Jewish' can be used to describe a culture, religion or ethnicity, and is a term used roughly equally for all three. 'Yiddish' is far, far more predominantly used for Jewish culture than religion or ethnicity, though, due to Yiddish culture being confined to a relatively small proportion of Jews.

I asked my friend Shimon about it today, and (despite not being a football fan whatsoever, and knowing little about the subject) he pretty much exactly the same opinion as CocaColaJoJo on it.

I think there'll never be a coherent view amongst 'Jews' (however you want to define them) on this and related topics. You've got people like the Anti Defamation League on one end of the spectrum, who are basically to Judaism or Jewishness what PETA are to vegetarians, and on the other end you'll have Jewish people at WHL who are proud to sing 'Yid Army' (David Bernstein's nephew being one that I know personally) as it shows the club's fans - both Jewish and non-Jewish - as vocally recognising the club's Jewish connections, without being patronising or mollycoddling.

My personal view on this latter part is that I'm inclined to agree. If City fans, many years ago, had taken it upon ourselves to have a self-depracating view of us having been founded by a woman by calling ourselves - say - 'the Nancies', and this had been banned for being sexist and/or homophobic, I'd be pretty peeved.

[ant london]

I'm glad we've decided that spasticating is still ok

[Blue Since 76]

I'm Jewish and have a lot of mates who are Spurs fans and tbh nearly all of them embrace the term 'yids' and chant it themselves ironically.

Football matches bring out the worst in people. FACT! In fact how many of us have been at a game and in the het of the moment shouted out something derogaraty/ racist and then when we're calmed down we feel almost embarrassed?

I think Spurs' approach is right - ask their own fans how they feel. They need to take account that them claiming the word and using it may make other fans feel that they can use it as well, but ultimately they are the ones on the end of the abuse.

The 'job' of any football fan should be to wind up the opposition players or fans to help their own team get a result. However, there has to be a limit. We've rightly decided that throwing bananas onto the pitch is wrong. Hopefully, the hissing sounds against Spurs are also seen as wrong. After that, it starts becoming more of a grey area. I wouldn't want a situation where all abusive/derogatory chants were banned, but the issue is where the line is drawn.