High line plus slow centre backs.

[Ted Hughes]

Enough of this back slapping & jolity.

Interesting stuff going on last night imo which indicated how the defensive plan is very much a work in progress. But is it the right work ?

The first goal we conceded, obviously, down to part of the back 4 keeping a line, one cb playing offside & the other not, which imo is more Russian Roulette, but even if Demechelis had held his position, it still wasn't the most solid of plans, as both he & Nasti struggle v pace. As soon as Fernandinho & Yaya missed the tackle, we were in danger with people running at the cbs.

Peter Reid was in City square last night & I remember his 'high line', which was about 15 yards further forward because Keith Curle was in it (& Phelan to a lesser extent) & he was fucking rapid. It still used to get breached by runners from midfield that Flitcroft etc couldn't be arsed chasing.

The other problem then, was that the whole midfield was squeezed together with no space for passing football.

Last night as Pants went to lump it Hart style, Negredo did his fucking fruit with the defenders & told them all to fuck off back towards our goal, which they did, & Pants then passed it out & we built from the back. They were at that moment holding a high line when we had the ball & we were about to lose posession because of it like we did v Bayern, all the time.

V Bayern, Hart was clearing the defenders away & lumping it. They can't both be right (my money is on Negredo) & it brings into focus the fact that basically, they don't yet know what they are doing & when to do it.

I'm not sure we have the defenders to play a high line as it should be played; they are too slow, turn slowly, & have no acceleration. DeMichelis played for the Count at Malaga, but Malaga were not challenging for 4 trophies, we are (& Malaga were a fucking dog's breakfast at the back v Dortmund anyway ESPECIALLY Demichelis).

Can we do this with the players we have or is he just building something for the next set of defenders to take on ?



Those who don't like talking football btw; fuck off & mind your own business.

[Goaters 103]

Good points.

I think a fit Kompany - if that ever happens - alongside a new centre half in January will be the plan and the high line will stay. At the moment with the slower paced Demichelis and Nastsic there if the pass is right, then the line is breached as was the case last night.

Demichelis is a stop-gap player and nothing more, there in case of injuries/suspensions to better centre halves in the squad; if he is playing every week we have a major problem against top level teams who will expose his lack of pace.

What is essential is that on January 1st we have a deal done for a top class centre halve, paying top dollar for a class player. That player is out there - supposedly its Nicolas Otamendi of Porto - but either way this player needs to be brought in as its a gaping hole in our squad that will be exposed if we are continuing to hold such a high line up the pitch.

[Ted Hughes]

Good points.

I think a fit Kompany - if that ever happens - alongside a new centre half in January will be the plan and the high line will stay. At the moment with the slower paced Demichelis and Nastsic there if the pass is right, then the line is breached as was the case last night.

Demichelis is a stop-gap player and nothing more, there in case of injuries/suspensions to better centre halves in the squad; if he is playing every week we have a major problem against top level teams who will expose his lack of pace.

What is essential is that on January 1st we have a deal done for a top class centre halve, paying top dollar for a class player. That player is out there - supposedly its Nicolas Otamendi of Porto - but either way this player needs to be brought in as its a gaping hole in our squad that will be exposed if we are continuing to hold such a high line up the pitch.

If we don't get one, do we just keep on with it anyway, building a routine for next season, & hope we get away with it enough to still win the title ?

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done rightl, but requires the right centre backs.

[Ted Hughes]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

[zabbadabbado]

I was sat right behind that net last night and had a good view of that CSKA goal.I hate to say this,but i felt that goal was down to Pants being a bit slow at interpreting the imminent danger,that is just my opinion.

I can see what Pellegrini is trying to do,and i believe eventually it will be very successful.He deliberately wants us to play with a high line,because he wants us to attack and defend as a unit.

For me,you take away all the individual errors we have seen thus far this season and see the bigger picture at work,it is proving to be very effective.You might think i am talking shit but that is my opinion.Who could predict our goal keeper would go to pot and start conceding nearly a goal a game.I have seen a statistic that puts us top off the League if you take out our individual errors.

Some off our football is sublime,sexy.we play with a swagger about us.I think we need only a decent sweeper type keeper for our system,because the keeper becomes very important in an attacking formation,in effect he is also a defender.We also need a good young pacey can pass the ball center half.Also in midfield i think we could do with back up in the midfield roll to shut tight games out.

we are work in progress,it will take time to become truly great.We are on the right path though. i think we are good enough to win the Premier League right now.To become European Champions we need to sort the defense and keeper out.

We are a joy to watch going forward right now.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

I don't think the centre backs need to be that quick to play it. Ferdinand and Vidic aren't particularly quick nor were many of the centrebacks over the years. It requires them to be very positionally aware and have good anticipation.

Also the thing with a high line is knowing when to use it also. As I said, when you've taken the lead is a good time, especially when the other team are looking vulnerable. One of the reasons Rags got so many late goals is because the other team simply can't get out and that's partly down to the fact their centre backs are lined up almost inside the other teams half. Squeezing the play.

I think we are good enough going forward whilst learning. It will mean dropping the occasional bollock but I'd much rather see us win 5-3 then 2-0 tbh.

[zabbadabbado]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

I don't think the centre backs need to be that quick to play it. Ferdinand and Vidic aren't particularly quick nor were many of the centrebacks over the years. It requires them to be very positionally aware and have good anticipation.

Also the thing with a high line is knowing when to use it also. As I said, when you've taken the lead is a good time, especially when the other team are looking vulnerable. One of the reasons Rags got so many late goals is because the other team simply can't get out and that's partly down to the fact their centre backs are lined up almost inside the other teams half. Squeezing the play.

I think we are good enough going forward whilst learning. It will mean dropping the occasional bollock but I'd much rather see us win 5-3 then 2-0 tbh.

I agree with this.

Also it is worth remembering some off these players have had to change from sitting back and just defending in a game to going forward and attacking and defending,in effect from being painfully slow and playing in a team with 3 banks off players to becoming just one unit and attacking at speed.Under Mancini the defense just defended,even the midfield sat just behind the back 4,with only very rare incursions over the half way line.There is a school of thought that this new system has exposed Joe Hart serious limitations in goal for us,it is fair to say he had very little to do in Mancini System with the continuous protection sat in front off him.Makes me wonder if Mancini always had reservations about his keeping ability and this dictated his over cautious approach in some games.

[Ted Hughes]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

I don't think the centre backs need to be that quick to play it. Ferdinand and Vidic aren't particularly quick nor were many of the centrebacks over the years. It requires them to be very positionally aware and have good anticipation.

Also the thing with a high line is knowing when to use it also. As I said, when you've taken the lead is a good time, especially when the other team are looking vulnerable. One of the reasons Rags got so many late goals is because the other team simply can't get out and that's partly down to the fact their centre backs are lined up almost inside the other teams half. Squeezing the play.

I think we are good enough going forward whilst learning. It will mean dropping the occasional bollock but I'd much rather see us win 5-3 then 2-0 tbh.

Ferdinand used to be very quick, & in those days it worked a lot better. Also Jaap Stam.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

The high line needs both quick back line players ( including the keeper) plus good pressure on the ball.I thought Fenandinho was unlucky last night as he pressed the midfielder and read the pass but it rebounded perfectly for them to just run at the back 4 and sadly as know they didn't handle it.

I even thought Clichy was a bit unlucky that from the tackle he put in the ball squirmed through for their guy to get wrong side of him.Always a good reason for such tackling to be done fully outside the box.I did think Clichy had started to look a bit leggy just before that.

As for our back 4 ,or any back 4,the one thing you really want is for them individually to be able to handle their attacker in on one one situations. Nasti certainly doesn't seem to have this ability yet.Maybe Demechelis has to a point as I think he is a far better tackler but there is still the problem that he can be done for sheer pace.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

I don't think the centre backs need to be that quick to play it. Ferdinand and Vidic aren't particularly quick nor were many of the centrebacks over the years. It requires them to be very positionally aware and have good anticipation.

Also the thing with a high line is knowing when to use it also. As I said, when you've taken the lead is a good time, especially when the other team are looking vulnerable. One of the reasons Rags got so many late goals is because the other team simply can't get out and that's partly down to the fact their centre backs are lined up almost inside the other teams half. Squeezing the play.

I think we are good enough going forward whilst learning. It will mean dropping the occasional bollock but I'd much rather see us win 5-3 then 2-0 tbh.

Ferdinand used to be very quick, & in those days it worked a lot better. Also Jaap Stam.

Did you not see the way Anelka sprinted past him in the build up to our first goal in the last Maine Road derby? That was ridiculous. Maybe that was a measure of just how quick Anelka was but Ferdinand never stuck me as that fast. Certainly not a slouch either though.

[Ted Hughes]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well especially when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done right especially when chasing a goal, but requires the right centre backs.

We are doing that part pretty well now but when we actually try to hold a line defensively, all kinds of shit happens.

Are we good enough going forward, to get through the season basically learning this system whilst trying to win stuff at the same time ?

I don't think the centre backs need to be that quick to play it. Ferdinand and Vidic aren't particularly quick nor were many of the centrebacks over the years. It requires them to be very positionally aware and have good anticipation.

Also the thing with a high line is knowing when to use it also. As I said, when you've taken the lead is a good time, especially when the other team are looking vulnerable. One of the reasons Rags got so many late goals is because the other team simply can't get out and that's partly down to the fact their centre backs are lined up almost inside the other teams half. Squeezing the play.

I think we are good enough going forward whilst learning. It will mean dropping the occasional bollock but I'd much rather see us win 5-3 then 2-0 tbh.

Ferdinand used to be very quick, & in those days it worked a lot better. Also Jaap Stam.

Did you not see the way Anelka sprinted past him in the build up to our first goal in the last Maine Road derby? That was ridiculous. Maybe that was a measure of just how quick Anelka was but Ferdinand never stuck me as that fast. Certainly not a slouch either though.

It was down to Anelka being very fast & an example of what can happen a lot to our players imo.

[Ted Hughes]

The high line needs both quick back line players ( including the keeper) plus good pressure on the ball.I thought Fenandinho was unlucky last night as he pressed the midfielder and read the pass but it rebounded perfectly for them to just run at the back 4 and sadly as know they didn't handle it.

I even thought Clichy was a bit unlucky that from the tackle he put in the ball squirmed through for their guy to get wrong side of him.Always a good reason for such tackling to be done fully outside the box.I did think Clichy had started to look a bit leggy just before that.

As for our back 4 ,or any back 4,the one thing you really want is for them individually to be able to handle their attacker in on one one situations. Nasti certainly doesn't seem to have this ability yet.Maybe Demechelis has to a point as I think he is a far better tackler but there is still the problem that he can be done for sheer pace.

Agree on all points (but for Clichy to risk giving away a pen was a continuation of his awful decision making which was obvious even pre season imo).

The way we play ideally requires 4 great defenders who can handle calamatous situations on their own (impossible to get 4 in the modern day tbf) & pace (possible) imo.

The only player without pace I can think of who regularly does that & gets away with it is Puyol.

[blues2win]

What's Mangala of Porto like? Looks as though he might well be available in January. The scum are sniffing round allegedly.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

An interesting thread.

From memory, the much vaunted Arsenal back line of a few years ago, populated by individuals such as Adams, Keown, Bould, Dixon etc. never struck me as possessing a great deal of pace, but they seemed to push up and play a higher line collectively (Adam's raised arm always springs to mind) and I'm surmising that they 'got away' with it so regularly by being regimented and well drilled.

I suppose this only comes with playing a lot of games together, something that our currently changing back four (whomsoever they are) now don't yet have.

Pondering a little further, I just wonder if the requirement for speedy defenders, especially central ones is, in many instances, at variance with the need for them to be dominant in the air i.e. how many tall, good in the air centre-backs possess good/great pace ??

If we can't obtain the 'all-in-one' package in the near future - or whenever - does that mean we have to decide which aspect is more important to us and accept shortcomings in the other ?? If we had mobile defenders would we have to accept that we might have a defence which was suspect in the air ??

[Ted Hughes]

What's Mangala of Porto like? Looks as though he might well be available in January. The scum are sniffing round allegedly.

Barely watched him in any detail tbh or the Argy lad apart from him just being on there while I was watching whoever. Argy lad looks lively in highlights packages.

Somewhere out there though are the next defensive superstars & with our huge scouting network, plus having Kolo gone & Lescott leaving soon, we should grab at least one.

[Beefymcfc]

I think it's quite obvious what the problem is, we're shit at the back. There's a number of considerations though and the main point being the CB pairing, not necessarily their speed. The constant chanhe does not help and the FBs will not be getting any confidence in regard to cover when they have been tasked to bomb-on. Demi is a wise old bird but has no legs at all and paired with Nasti, who needs a guiding hand, it doesn't make for the best partnership.

The answer is, fuck knows but Pellers has to sort it out. Personally I'd go with Demi and Lescott and forget about this transition from back to front. It's not as if we actually play that game regardless of what people think.

We need a PL wise bird in there to take control but for me it would be Kompany/Nasti or Demi/Lescott, one that knows/one that's learning. And before you say Kompany/Lescott, this isn't going to happen. It worked for a long time ut somebody decided it wasn't going to continue.

[Ted Hughes]

An interesting thread.

From memory, the much vaunted Arsenal back line of a few years ago, populated by individuals such as Adams, Keown, Bould, Dixon etc. never struck me as possessing a great deal of pace, but they seemed to push up and play a higher line collectively (Adam's raised arm always springs to mind) and I'm surmising that they 'got away' with it so regularly by being regimented and well drilled.

I suppose this only comes with playing a lot of games together, something that our currently changing back four (whomsoever they are) now don't yet have.

Pondering a little further, I just wonder if the requirement for speedy defenders, especially central ones is, in many instances, at variance with the need for them to be dominant in the air i.e. how many tall, good in the air centre-backs possess good/great pace ??

If we can't obtain the 'all-in-one' package in the near future - or whenever - does that mean we have to decide which aspect is more important to us and accept shortcomings in the other ?? If we had mobile defenders would we have to accept that we might have a defence which was suspect in the air ??

Have one of each. Vinny & JL are both great in the air. Nastasic is so so & only moderately paced. A Keith Curle type next to Vinny, covering behind, allows him to attack the ball.

Curle was not as good as Vinny or JL in the air, but if he played next to either he would hold his own aerially ok, then stop the likes of Cavani & Robben from doing us on the ground.

Arsenal were worked to death repeatedly, day in day out by Don Howe, but Keown would murder our cbs in a sprint .

Then they got Sol Campbell, who did both.

[MilnersJaw]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done rightl, but requires the right centre backs.

I'm guessing of everyone here you'd know that.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

Rag teams of the past used to do the high line quite well when they got a goal up, they squeezed the other team right back into their own half and it resulted in constant pressure. Especially when they needed a goal, their centre backs would almost line up in the other teams half.
It can work brilliantly if done rightl, but requires the right centre backs.

I'm guessing of everyone here you'd know that.

Yeah it worked 90% of the time.