Tactics talk

[Nigels Tackle]

looking to steal the stating the obvious crown from zabbadabado here....

for me, the issue is that we're not using enough of the pitch.... this has both offensive and defensive consequences....

we spent large parts of the sunderland match (and cardiff/villa and to a certain extent chelsea) trying to play football in the final 25 yards of the pitch. sunderland had 9 men back defending and we had 8 men up. 17 players (18 if you include their keeper) squeezed into what is effectively a 5 aside pitch is never going to be easy to play in and you're never going to be able to do anything at pace, it also leaves us very vulnerable to the counter attack

if we sat 10 yards deeper thereby drawing the opposition midfield towards the ball, we'd have a far greater chance to play our quick, attacking football and i also think that we'd be far less vulnerable to being hit on the break...

[zuricity]

looking to steal the stating the obvious crown from zabbadabado here....

for me, the issue is that we're not using enough of the pitch.... this has both offensive and defensive consequences....

we spent large parts of the sunderland match (and cardiff/villa and to a certain extent chelsea) trying to play football in the final 25 yards of the pitch. sunderland had 9 men back defending and we had 8 men up. 17 players (18 if you include their keeper) squeezed into what is effectively a 5 aside pitch is never going to be easy to play in and you're never going to be able to do anything at pace, it also leaves us very vulnerable to the counter attack

if we sat 10 yards deeper thereby drawing the opposition midfield towards the ball, we'd have a far greater chance to play our quick, attacking football and i also think that we'd be far less vulnerable to being hit on the break...

That's a fair point
I would love to see City go one up and just kick the ball around in our own half for about 15 mins , just to piss the opposition off and finally make them come out and try to play. Instead of this 11 man in own box tactic.

[john68]

Mmmmh .... wasn't Garcia injured just before half time by a two footed tackle? And as for the impact of Navas , did we score ? Or was he also not seen making poor crosses, decisions and drifting into midfield again ??

That tackle was in the 1st 10 minutes.

Navas came on and gave us width which instantly made us more threatening. The fact that nobody got in and challenged I'll leave open to debate, but no doubt he added more attack immediately.

Lee,
You are correct, Navas came on and did have an immediate impact. He got beyond his full back several times and got crosses into the centre. It did offer us an option we hadn't previously got and answered the call of so many last year, to use a wide man instead of the overlapping full back. Considering we had Dzeko up front, it seemed like a good move.

BUT......Why, having proved to be a way through, did Navas inexplicably move inside, leaving the full back to go wide? It defeated and negated the whole point of why he was brought on.

If it was under Pellergrini's instruction, it was stupidity on his behalf.
If Navas made that decision to go inside, why didn't Pellergrini put his fuckin knitting down, get up off his arse and tell him to get wide again?

That is Pellergrini's job.
You have coached Mate, and if you see something that needs tweeking or changing, do you sit there, impassive with your head down and arms folded, or do you go to the touchline and ensure the wrong is righted?

[mcfc1632]

Biggest tactical mistake for me was playing Richards at the start if Zabba was fit enough. Richards should only come on in games where we are already 3 up so that he can get used to playing a team role without risking points.

I will not go on too much about his continually being out of position but his attitude of gently jogging or walking back when the opposition are breaking down the space where he has a responsibility to cover drives me nuts. If you watch their goal again from the angle behind the goal you will see Richards ambling back towards the goal - occasionally jogging but never breaking into a determined effort. I had to start closing my eyes when that angle was shown.

I saw this so much a couple of years ago when he played regular. OK, in this instance he could not have made it back in time to stop Bardsley but does he have no appreciation that often there are '2nd plays' - Panti might have made a save and we needed someone back to pick up the loose ball - yet he makes no effort. I have seen many goals in the past where an opposition has picked up the ball from a tackle or save when Richards could have been back by then.

I think that he cares - I just also think that he has not a shred of a football brain - just what position was he playing yesterday? Other CITY players seem to be confused with him popping up in very advanced positions - often on the right wing - sometimes in Ya Ya's way - FFS he was even playing ahead of Navas when he came on - was that a reason for him cutting inside?

Why was Pellers not screaming at him to do what his role was? I am assuming that it was not planned that he should just stroll about on the right adding absolutely nothing apart from confusion and providing no supporting cover when they attacked?

You cannot play with 10 men in the PL for 71 mins.

[Nigels Tackle]

Biggest tactical mistake for me was playing Richards at the start if Zabba was fit enough. Richards should only come on in games where we are already 3 up so that he can get used to playing a team role without risking points.

I will not go on too much about his continually being out of position but his attitude of gently jogging or walking back when the opposition are breaking down the space where he has a responsibility to cover drives me nuts. If you watch their goal again from the angle behind the goal you will see Richards ambling back towards the goal - occasionally jogging but never breaking into a determined effort. I had to start closing my eyes when that angle was shown.

I saw this so much a couple of years ago when he played regular. OK, in this instance he could not have made it back in time to stop Bardsley but does he have no appreciation that often there are '2nd plays' - Panti might have made a save and we needed someone back to pick up the loose ball - yet he makes no effort. I have seen many goals in the past where an opposition has picked up the ball from a tackle or save when Richards could have been back by then.

I think that he cares - I just also think that he has not a shred of a football brain - just what position was he playing yesterday? Other CITY players seem to be confused with him popping up in very advanced positions - often on the right wing - sometimes in Ya Ya's way - FFS he was even playing ahead of Navas when he came on - was that a reason for him cutting inside?

Why was Pellers not screaming at him to do what his role was? I am assuming that it was not planned that he should just stroll about on the right adding absolutely nothing apart from confusion and providing no supporting cover when they attacked?

You cannot play with 10 men in the PL for 71 mins.

you mean 9

[Foreverinbluedreams]

Biggest tactical mistake for me was playing Richards at the start if Zabba was fit enough. Richards should only come on in games where we are already 3 up so that he can get used to playing a team role without risking points.

I will not go on too much about his continually being out of position but his attitude of gently jogging or walking back when the opposition are breaking down the space where he has a responsibility to cover drives me nuts. If you watch their goal again from the angle behind the goal you will see Richards ambling back towards the goal - occasionally jogging but never breaking into a determined effort. I had to start closing my eyes when that angle was shown.

I saw this so much a couple of years ago when he played regular. OK, in this instance he could not have made it back in time to stop Bardsley but does he have no appreciation that often there are '2nd plays' - Panti might have made a save and we needed someone back to pick up the loose ball - yet he makes no effort. I have seen many goals in the past where an opposition has picked up the ball from a tackle or save when Richards could have been back by then.

I think that he cares - I just also think that he has not a shred of a football brain - just what position was he playing yesterday? Other CITY players seem to be confused with him popping up in very advanced positions - often on the right wing - sometimes in Ya Ya's way - FFS he was even playing ahead of Navas when he came on - was that a reason for him cutting inside?

Why was Pellers not screaming at him to do what his role was? I am assuming that it was not planned that he should just stroll about on the right adding absolutely nothing apart from confusion and providing no supporting cover when they attacked?

You cannot play with 10 men in the PL for 71 mins.

Agree with most of your post apart from this bit. Navas was one on one with their full back a number of times because Micah took a player inside. When Zaba came on he start overlapping Navas, running into the space where Navas got some joy early in the half which meant the deliveries from the right dried up.

[Original Dub]

Have we lost the away games due to tactical reasons or bad defending by players who should be better? Certainly from a defensive perspective all the defeats can be traced back to awful individual mistakes.Cardiff it was Joe and Zaba,Villa it was the centre backs and Joe,Chelsea it was mainly Joe with a bit of Nasti.The only game where the tactics were simply wrong and we lost was Bayern and we would probably have lost that anyway.

Maybe against Chelsea we were set up wrong but he changed that and we got level and dominated the game in the 2nd half

If we look at the tactical approach going forward I don't see too much wrong.You can argue the strongest teams should be played in every game which will always give us a front 5 of Yaya.Silva,Nasri,Kun and Negredo, but that's not going to happen every game as there is bound to be a little bit of rotation.But playing the likes of Milner,Navas and Dzeko should not be a problem.Hell even if Garcia gets a game in midfield it should be a major issue.

The Sunderland game for 4 years in a row now has shown our vulnerability.Teams that are very well organised and run till they drop are a problem for us.The likes of Aguero,Silva and co are not marked by one player but often 3 and when we get balls into the box we are usually faced by 7 or 8 defenders deep and ready to attack the ball and smother any City player who is the target.

The one thing I don't see from City in games like this is intensity from the start.It really seems that we know we are the better side and there isn't a worry as we will score and they won't.Often their goal comes late so there isn't a lot of time to react but yesterday we had loads of time but it seemed to take an age before it fully dawned on us that we were going to lose.

The manager said those worrying words for me that "I cannot believe we lost that game".Well I think the fans can.

Excellent post Doug and that's pretty much the way I've seen it this season as well.

We have had some shite results and there's no getting away from that, but pointing at tactics for anything other than possibly the Bayern defeat seems off point to me.

I agree with everyone that Garcia shouldn't be on the pitch and I don't believe he would be, given the choice. If he continues to be, that is a selection problem, not a tactical one.

I'm finding hard to find any run of games where we have had any kind of a settled back 4. That is the problem. It is not 100% the problem, but if that was sorted, then we wouldn't miss Silva, Fernandinho and Kompany half as much as we do right now.

Injuries/loss of form to the full spine of the team, from Joe Hart right through to David Silva, coupled with having to constantly change our back four is the problem.

I thought that was obvious, but to some it is all the manager's fault. If we have at least some of those players back and even a semi-settled back four, I think we'll fly. Certainly in the league and cups. Champions League against top class oppo, we may need to make specific changes to deal with the likes of outstanding individuals like Messi, Tranny, Robben, Ribery etc. and when we are losing and need to react to being overrun in midfield or out wide..

I think the best managers keep it simple and manage the individuals under them. Personally, I think Mancini's insistence on changing tactics sometimes game to game was a large part of his undoing.

[getdressedmctavish]

all good points, all true. Here's an extra thought. Money. no one really hurts when were losing.Look at the rags game yesterday. I was fecking wincing. It was war.Look at the sheer effort put in by a minor talent like Jones or koshowever you spell it. We're supposed to have a beast up front but their two CB's and dodgy goalie played unscathed. I've criticised him for it in the past but atleast Nasri tried to dish it out.We are constantly whinging about being on the receiving end when we should be giving it back. As ever, I think Buzzer and Franny and wonder what they make of it. Neither made more than £250 a week at City.

[City64]

Defensively we are diabolical so far under pellegrini that is why we are 8th in the league ....... when was the last time we were 8th in the league since the Sheik thankfully took over our glorious football club ? Thank fuck we are "only" 6 pts behind the leaders but the worrying thing is our defencive play doesnt look like it is going to get any better anytime soon so this is a huge worry !!! If it isnt Joe Hart dropping bollocks it is some other fucker ........ its a fucking mess !!!

[Goaters 103]

Defensively we are diabolical so far under pellegrini that is why we are 8th in the league ....... when was the last time we were 8th in the league since the Sheik thankfully took over our glorious football club ? Thank fuck we are "only" 6 pts behind the leaders but the worrying thing is our defencive play doesnt look like it is going to get any better anytime soon so this is a huge worry !!! If it isnt Joe Hart dropping bollocks it is some other fucker ........ its a fucking mess !!!

The biggest concern is hearing the same claptrap from the manager about how its incredible we lost, and that little needs to change.

If nothing is done we can kiss goodbye to any hopes of a trophy or even a CL spot unless we start getting pts away from home. Beating United 4-1 at home is no good if you then go and lose at dross like Villa; walloping Norwich 7-0 is all very entertaining but its one step forward and one back when you then go and lose at Sunderland the week after.

[sheblue]

its all very worrying there are good and bad sides to pelligrini. for me he is slow to change when things arent going well, the classic example of this was the bayern game, we were done and dusted before he reacted. yesterday it was clear navas should have started we needed his width and pace against a packed defense and milner should be in the cente instead of garcia.

on the plus side he has gotten the best out of aguero, silva and nasri who are all much better than last season. So his 'man management' maybe better but his tactical decisions, particurarly those in the heat of battle during a game, are open to question. This will cost us in away games when there is more pressure and in the last 16 of champions leauge when we face good opposition.

[Breks]

Defensively we are diabolical so far under pellegrini that is why we are 8th in the league ....... when was the last time we were 8th in the league since the Sheik thankfully took over our glorious football club ? Thank fuck we are "only" 6 pts behind the leaders but the worrying thing is our defencive play doesnt look like it is going to get any better anytime soon so this is a huge worry !!! If it isnt Joe Hart dropping bollocks it is some other fucker ........ its a fucking mess !!!

After 11 games last year we had 25 points and scored 18, conceded 11. We have scored 28 this season and have conceded 12 but only 19 points. So our defence wasn't much better at the same stage last year. its ridiculous that were 8th.

[Ted Hughes]

Don't understand all the anti Richards stuff. Zabba has been average to shit all season.

The bloke who scored was a fucking fullback, up against two City players & the keeper; easily enough cover. That's not Richards' fault.

And when Zabba came on, all he did was ruin Navas. Richards was making runs then dragging one of the defenders inside, giving Navas the opportunity to go 1v1. Zabaleta just stood out wide taking Navas' space & fucked up our width.

Re tactics; the Count picked Garcia, which made tactics irrelevant.

What is it with lack of one touch passing? I mean some players do it "accidentally" when in tight spot but most of the times it's two -three touches every single time. I can't believe that manager would instruct them to do so but something's wrong there.

Fernandinho & Silva are the main forces behind that. Garcia hides behind the oppo so the defenders don't pass to him. We know what Silva does but Fern also always wants the ball & gets it moving forward pretty much every time, he always knows who is behind him when he receives the ball so can turn & pass if given the slightest space & always gives his teammates an angle to pass to him especially the back 4. He is yards quicker at closing space than any other City player & often gets a toe in, spoiling the oppo move & starting off more 1 touch stuff of our own. He is absolutely fucking excellent.

[london blue 2]

I still think we lack creativity when Silva isn't playing. Newcastle in the cup was an example of what he brings to the side, he just frees things up around him and the gaps appear. I have no idea if Jovetic can do the same job (doubt it) but worryingly he seems to be turning into another Bojinov (or something else isn't right, hence why he played longer for Montenegro against England than he has for City of late). We need cover for Silva or even someone threatening his starting role.

We should bring in Juan Mata in january. He is out of favour with moreen so it is a possibility he could be sold.

Yes. Absolutely.

[bayblue]

Sticking on tactics then quite simply our corner taking is rubbish! I remember that last season United's conversions from corners was over twice that of ours and I can't believe it's any different so far this season. We miss Silva massively but the one thing we don't miss is his corners. We don't seem to have much invention in the part of our game so hope we scan see an improvement soon.

[brite blu sky]

Have we lost the away games due to tactical reasons or bad defending by players who should be better? Certainly from a defensive perspective all the defeats can be traced back to awful individual mistakes.

That is one way to read it yes. I would ask Why so many individual mistakes all coming at once, in away games mostly and often v poor oppo? Why the pattern just now?
Add that lot up and it is sensible imo to start to look at a structural problem. Not training for certain situations? Not taking the oppo seriously enough? Not understanding direct English football and specifically training for it.

The one thing I don't see from City in games like this is intensity from the start.It really seems that we know we are the better side and there isn't a worry as we will score and they won't.Often their goal comes late so there isn't a lot of time to react but yesterday we had loads of time but it seemed to take an age before it fully dawned on us that we were going to lose.

The manager said those worrying words for me that "I cannot believe we lost that game".Well I think the fans can.

This sums a lot up for me. And the last bit shows he doesn't understand the situation or why it keeps happening.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

Lee, You are correct, Navas came on and did have an immediate impact. He got beyond his full back several times and got crosses into the centre. It did offer us an option we hadn't previously got and answered the call of so many last year, to use a wide man instead of the overlapping full back. Considering we had Dzeko up front, it seemed like a good move. BUT......Why, having proved to be a way through, did Navas inexplicably move inside, leaving the full back to go wide? It defeated and negated the whole point of why he was brought on. If it was under Pellergrini's instruction, it was stupidity on his behalf. If Navas made that decision to go inside, why didn't Pellergrini put his fuckin knitting down, get up off his arse and tell him to get wide again? That is Pellergrini's job. You have coached Mate, and if you see something that needs tweeking or changing, do you sit there, impassive with your head down and arms folded, or do you go to the touchline and ensure the wrong is righted?

I answered that earlier mate. It all changed when zaba came on. He stood so high and wise that there was no longer space for navas to run into.

[mcfc1632]

Don't understand all the anti Richards stuff. Zabba has been average to shit all season.

The bloke who scored was a fucking fullback, up against two City players & the keeper; easily enough cover. That's not Richards' fault.

And when Zabba came on, all he did was ruin Navas. Richards was making runs then dragging one of the defenders inside, giving Navas the opportunity to go 1v1. Zabaleta just stood out wide taking Navas' space & fucked up our width.

Re tactics; the Count picked Garcia, which made tactics irrelevant.

What is it with lack of one touch passing? I mean some players do it "accidentally" when in tight spot but most of the times it's two -three touches every single time. I can't believe that manager would instruct them to do so but something's wrong there.

Fernandinho & Silva are the main forces behind that. Garcia hides behind the oppo so the defenders don't pass to him. We know what Silva does but Fern also always wants the ball & gets it moving forward pretty much every time, he always knows who is behind him when he receives the ball so can turn & pass if given the slightest space & always gives his teammates an angle to pass to him especially the back 4. He is yards quicker at closing space than any other City player & often gets a toe in, spoiling the oppo move & starting off more 1 touch stuff of our own. He is absolutely fucking excellent.

Ted - where was their player receiving the ball and where was he when scored? Where was Richards at that time, what effort was he making to get back and provide support and what percentage of the 71 mins on the pitch to you think that he was in the RB position?

[brite blu sky]

Sticking on tactics then quite simply our corner taking is rubbish! I remember that last season United's conversions from corners was over twice that of ours and I can't believe it's any different so far this season. We miss Silva massively but the one thing we don't miss is his corners. We don't seem to have much invention in the part of our game so hope we scan see an improvement soon.

As long as Silva isn't taking them they are fine. Nasri is doing a good job this season. We should be getting more goals it is true, a lot more as there is a certain law of averages about corners.
I wonder if the coaches and the hierarchy have a lack of interest in corners in general... not seen as first order in the Spanish league.

Doug, do they practice corners and attacking them every day in training? and if so who leads the training ?

[john68]

Biggest tactical mistake for me was playing Richards at the start if Zabba was fit enough. Richards should only come on in games where we are already 3 up so that he can get used to playing a team role without risking points.

I will not go on too much about his continually being out of position but his attitude of gently jogging or walking back when the opposition are breaking down the space where he has a responsibility to cover drives me nuts. If you watch their goal again from the angle behind the goal you will see Richards ambling back towards the goal - occasionally jogging but never breaking into a determined effort. I had to start closing my eyes when that angle was shown.

I saw this so much a couple of years ago when he played regular. OK, in this instance he could not have made it back in time to stop Bardsley but does he have no appreciation that often there are '2nd plays' - Panti might have made a save and we needed someone back to pick up the loose ball - yet he makes no effort. I have seen many goals in the past where an opposition has picked up the ball from a tackle or save when Richards could have been back by then.

I think that he cares - I just also think that he has not a shred of a football brain - just what position was he playing yesterday? Other CITY players seem to be confused with him popping up in very advanced positions - often on the right wing - sometimes in Ya Ya's way - FFS he was even playing ahead of Navas when he came on - was that a reason for him cutting inside?

Why was Pellers not screaming at him to do what his role was? I am assuming that it was not planned that he should just stroll about on the right adding absolutely nothing apart from confusion and providing no supporting cover when they attacked?

You cannot play with 10 men in the PL for 71 mins.

Whilst I don't doubt the veracity of your statement, but that was such a lot to see...with your eyes shut....:-)

Not even a little peep?...Bet you did.