***soton v city official match thread***

[Spurge]

As I thought.

It's what people think Lescott looks like, rather than what he actually does, which is used to judge him.

i hear you as i know lescott has a high pass completion percentage, but his decision making and passing do not really generate much in terms of our counter attack, or really just getting it started faster. he will usually just give the ball to another nearby player who likes to dribble or make a long pass. demichellis likes to dribble more and is a bit more creative, which suits our style of play, i think.

he's a stop gap player anyway. this is an area that needs improvement on the team, clearly.

That's not the centre backs job ffs. I want a defender who defends well - not goes on mazy runs up the pitch and tries through balls.

Spot on.

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

[clawbaggio]

Lescott hasn't let us down when he has played.
Demichaelis is a nightmare. He dives in all the time and misses the ball. He tries to get tight but makes it so easy for attackers to turn him. And he has no pace. Not really seen anything to suggest he is this great passer of the ball some think he is.
Id rather have JL any day. He may look awkward but he can actually pass the ball. And, main thing, he can defend

[Ted Hughes]

As I thought.

It's what people think Lescott looks like, rather than what he actually does, which is used to judge him.

i hear you as i know lescott has a high pass completion percentage, but his decision making and passing do not really generate much in terms of our counter attack, or really just getting it started faster. he will usually just give the ball to another nearby player who likes to dribble or make a long pass. demichellis likes to dribble more and is a bit more creative, which suits our style of play, i think.

he's a stop gap player anyway. this is an area that needs improvement on the team, clearly.

That's not the centre backs job ffs. I want a defender who defends well - not goes on mazy runs up the pitch and tries through balls.

Spot on.

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

Very few centre backs are actually any good on the ball. They are competent.

Lescott is competent. Bayern Munich would not cease to function by havibg Lescott at cb. They would just be even better.

[Spurge]

Spot on.

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

[highlight]Very few centre backs are actually any good on the ball. They are competent.

Lescott is competent. Bayern Munich would not cease to function by havibg Lescott at cb. They would just be even better[/highlight].

Ok lets put it this way, if a centre half was exceptionally good on the ball they probably wouldn't be playing in central defence.

What I am saying, particularly at the level City are at right now, and in keeping with the enforced changes to the modern game, is that a quality centre half needs to be more than a good defender nowadays.

That's my understanding or perception of what Pellergrini is looking for from within his squad. He wants to move the ball more quickly from back to front - as we know, and a centre half with an eye for a long ball as well as the ability to dribble out of the back four with confidence and pick a short forward pass to progress an attack becomes very important.

Last week Brendan Rogers said he saw Gerrard becoming a centre half. As his fitness levels and ability to get up and down as a central midfielder become more of a challenge in his twilight years, his other key attributes fit the profile well and is very much in keeping with the modern requirements for a centre half.

Edit: Made a complete balls up of the 'more than 5 quotes' rule. This is Ted's post I'm replying to!!!!

[Ted Hughes]

Ok lets put it this way, if a centre half was exceptionally good on the ball they probably wouldn't be playing in central defence.

What I am saying, particularly at the level City are at right now, and in keeping with the enforced changes to the modern game, is that a quality centre half needs to be more than a good defender nowadays.

That's my understanding or perception of what Pellergrini is looking for from within his squad. He wants to move the ball more quickly from back to front - as we know, and a centre half with an eye for a long ball as well as the ability to dribble out of the back four with confidence and pick a short forward pass to progress an attack becomes very important.

Last week Brendan Rogers said he saw Gerrard becoming a centre half. As his fitness levels and ability to get up and down as a central midfielder become more of a challenge in his twilight years, his other key attributes fit the profile well and is very much in keeping with the modern requirements for a centre half.

Let's say Gerrard is our centre back. We are playing against Chelsea or Stoke. Who do you want next to him when the corner comes in, Mascherano or Lescott ?

[twosips]

As I thought.

It's what people think Lescott looks like, rather than what he actually does, which is used to judge him.

i hear you as i know lescott has a high pass completion percentage, but his decision making and passing do not really generate much in terms of our counter attack, or really just getting it started faster. he will usually just give the ball to another nearby player who likes to dribble or make a long pass. demichellis likes to dribble more and is a bit more creative, which suits our style of play, i think.

he's a stop gap player anyway. this is an area that needs improvement on the team, clearly.

That's not the centre backs job ffs. I want a defender who defends well - not goes on mazy runs up the pitch and tries through balls.

Spot on.

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

Bull shit. It doesn't have to be that way at all. Lescott was hardly a liability in our title winning season wtih his no nonsense defending. Terry's hardly great on the ball is he? Nor is Vidic. Puyol isn't even great on the ball. These players have all had huge roles to play in great teams. You need that solid ball winner. Kompany's often quite happy to charge up the pitch joining attacks - we don't need two doing that. I'd much rather my centre backs stopped anyone scoring and then gave the ball to the midfielders. This notion that everyone needs to be Xavi on the ball is rubbish and was only born out of the wank fest that followed Barca and Spain's dominance with possession football.

[twosips]

The idea of Gerrard as a centre back is so laughably shit it hurts. He'd be woeful there.

It's no coincidence to me that the vast majority of teams these days are shite at defending as everyone is focused on forward play as if its the be all and end all of it. You rarely see solid units. They're all dodgy and often exposed. Chelsea look a fuck load better when they had Terry with Alex or Carvalho (actual proper tough bastards who won every ball) then they did with someone like Luiz who is perceived as a ball playing centre half. Chelsea's dominance was built on that defensive stoicness. They even had Cole at LB who could actually defend which most full backs cant do these days.

[Hutch's Shoulder]

It's no coincidence to me that the vast majority of teams these days are shite at defending as everyone is focused on forward play as if its the be all and end all of it. You rarely see solid units. They're all dodgy and often exposed.

Yes. Premier League has been defensively woeful for years. That's why all those 'best league in the world' sales pitches from Sky were so laughable.

[Sideshow Bob]

Interesting that Barry is captain...any other loan players wearing the band?

[Spurge]

i hear you as i know lescott has a high pass completion percentage, but his decision making and passing do not really generate much in terms of our counter attack, or really just getting it started faster. he will usually just give the ball to another nearby player who likes to dribble or make a long pass. demichellis likes to dribble more and is a bit more creative, which suits our style of play, i think.

he's a stop gap player anyway. this is an area that needs improvement on the team, clearly.

That's not the centre backs job ffs. I want a defender who defends well - not goes on mazy runs up the pitch and tries through balls.

Spot on.

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

Bull shit. It doesn't have to be that way at all. Lescott was hardly a liability in our title winning season wtih his no nonsense defending. Terry's hardly great on the ball is he? Nor is Vidic. Puyol isn't even great on the ball. These players have all had huge roles to play in great teams. You need that solid ball winner. Kompany's often quite happy to charge up the pitch joining attacks - we don't need two doing that. I'd much rather my centre backs stopped anyone scoring and then gave the ball to the midfielders. This notion that everyone needs to be Xavi on the ball is rubbish and was only born out of the wank fest that followed Barca and Spain's dominance with possession football.

Intelligent opening to your reply - I like that.

The point isn't that a centre half for City needs to be one or the other (a player with strong defensive ability or a slick passer who strolls out of defence) IT'S SOMEONE WHO CAN DO BOTH.

This I think is the philosophy of our current management team, a thought process adopted partly as a consequence of the fact that defending in the traditional sense has been largely eradicated from the game due to changes to laws that govern it and partly because its a requirement of the style of play we have adopted, which involves moving the ball quickly out of defence into attack.

[phips]

Interesting that Barry is captain...any other loan players wearing the band?

Jagielka is captain

[twosips]

Bull shit is just a harmless term. Relax.

Yeah in an ideal world we'd have someone who could do both. It's absolutely ridiculous though imo to choose the guy who can pass but not defend over the one who can defend but not pass (which is rubbish as lescott can pass as good as any of our defenders - but let's argue that theoretically anyway for the sake of this convo) - you always should choose defensive stability first and then build on that. It's the one thing Mancini got right initially (then messed up by insisting on Nastasic who just isnt good enough defensively). We should take that route until we find someone who can do both wonderfully. For what its worth i don't think there is a single player in the league who can both wonderfully so it's gonna be a long search. Someone will say Hummels or something but even they are very suspect defensively. I'd much rather choose the defender for now. You don't lose games if you don't concede and we pretty much always score regardless of who we have in defence so its kinda simple logic if you ask me.

I also disagree about defending being eradicated. If that was the case players like Vidic and Terry wouldn't be effective - they are and still would be if they weren't really old. Terry still is actually.

[Spurge]

Ok lets put it this way, if a centre half was exceptionally good on the ball they probably wouldn't be playing in central defence.

What I am saying, particularly at the level City are at right now, and in keeping with the enforced changes to the modern game, is that a quality centre half needs to be more than a good defender nowadays.

That's my understanding or perception of what Pellergrini is looking for from within his squad. He wants to move the ball more quickly from back to front - as we know, and a centre half with an eye for a long ball as well as the ability to dribble out of the back four with confidence and pick a short forward pass to progress an attack becomes very important.

Last week Brendan Rogers said he saw Gerrard becoming a centre half. As his fitness levels and ability to get up and down as a central midfielder become more of a challenge in his twilight years, his other key attributes fit the profile well and is very much in keeping with the modern requirements for a centre half.

Let's say Gerrard is our centre back. We are playing against Chelsea or Stoke. Who do you want next to him when the corner comes in, Mascherano or Lescott ?

Not really a question for me is it - I've already said what I want from a centre half.

I think what City want is someone who does both of what those two can offer. You only have to look at what Pellers is trying to do in his approach to the game to see this. If such a player exists it might just be the final piece in the puzzle

[Spurge]

Bull shit is just a harmless term. Relax.

Yeah in an ideal world we'd have someone who could do both. It's absolutely ridiculous though imo to choose the guy who can pass but not defend over the one who can defend but not pass (which is rubbish as lescott can pass as good as any of our defenders - but let's argue that theoretically anyway for the sake of this convo) - you always should choose defensive stability first and then build on that. It's the one thing Mancini got right initially (then messed up by insisting on Nastasic who just isnt good enough defensively). We should take that route until we find someone who can do both wonderfully. For what its worth i don't think there is a single player in the league who can both wonderfully so it's gonna be a long search. Someone will say Hummels or something but even they are very suspect defensively. I'd much rather choose the defender for now. You don't lose games if you don't concede and we pretty much always score regardless of who we have in defence so its kinda simple logic if you ask me.

I also disagree about defending being eradicated. If that was the case players like Vidic and Terry wouldn't be effective - they are and still would be if they weren't really old. Terry still is actually.

I'm relaxed alright - don't worry about that, just didn't see it's relevance really, especially as we actually agree on what we'd like from a centre half.

The element of defending which without question has been eradicated from the game whether Terry, Vidic or whoever else may be your centre half is a physical challenge where the player takes the ball first but his momentum also takes the man. It's a free kick to the opposition in the modern game, where it was once seen as a good challenge.

Actually your example of Terry and Vidic are perfect examples to illustrate the point, as both have been around for a long time and used to make that sort of robust challenge which is now something they are penalised for. Terry is certainly not the terrifying proposition for a forward he once was, as a result. He played both Chelsea's games this week against what you would consider to be mediocre opposition in the form of Sunderland and Stoke and they conceded 3 goals in each game. That in my view is no coincidence.

[Beefymcfc]

I can see both sides of this debate but it's not really our choice. Lescott, for me, should be way out in front of both Nasti and Demi, especially the latter when played on the left, but it seems that he isn't what we are looking for and Splurge's argument that we want a football playing CB is the way forward.

It has to be otherwise Lescott would surely be playing.

[tc6828]

We definitely need a real 3rd attacking option to let Segio have a rest as he looks more and more as though his energy levels are slowly dropping. Forget Djeko, he does nothing for us anymore

[Ted Hughes]

Ok lets put it this way, if a centre half was exceptionally good on the ball they probably wouldn't be playing in central defence.

What I am saying, particularly at the level City are at right now, and in keeping with the enforced changes to the modern game, is that a quality centre half needs to be more than a good defender nowadays.

That's my understanding or perception of what Pellergrini is looking for from within his squad. He wants to move the ball more quickly from back to front - as we know, and a centre half with an eye for a long ball as well as the ability to dribble out of the back four with confidence and pick a short forward pass to progress an attack becomes very important.

Last week Brendan Rogers said he saw Gerrard becoming a centre half. As his fitness levels and ability to get up and down as a central midfielder become more of a challenge in his twilight years, his other key attributes fit the profile well and is very much in keeping with the modern requirements for a centre half.

Let's say Gerrard is our centre back. We are playing against Chelsea or Stoke. Who do you want next to him when the corner comes in, Mascherano or Lescott ?

Not really a question for me is it - I've already said what I want from a centre half.

I think what City want is someone who does both of what those two can offer. You only have to look at what Pellers is trying to do in his approach to the game to see this. If such a player exists it might just be the final piece in the puzzle

It's a genuine response to your post. I would like to shag Katy Perry, but chances are, I may not get that opportunity.

If we could find cbs who are fantastic on the ball & great at defending, I wouldn't just dump Lescott, I'd dump Vinny & the others too, none of them are great on the ball & several not very good at defending.

The point is, when the shit hits the fan, would you rather have have Mascherano & Gerrard, or Lescott & Kompany ?

Which makes the most difference ?

Imo, if you put Vinny & JL in Bayern's team, as they were when they played together regularly, then Bayern would not lose even 1o% of their effectiveness on the ball, but would be much more solid at the back.

If you put Gerrard & Mascerano there, they would be shite at defending & add something extra Bayern don't need.

The same goes for City. Our best cb pairing should have been playing together last season, as often as possible for as long as it took to get them working together at full tilt again, & only when it's sorted should the second string start to get games as rotation.

Neither VK or JL has improved as a player since Mancini & now the Count, started fucking them around, & City have not improved defensively as a team.

[Spurge]

Ok lets put it this way, if a centre half was exceptionally good on the ball they probably wouldn't be playing in central defence.

What I am saying, particularly at the level City are at right now, and in keeping with the enforced changes to the modern game, is that a quality centre half needs to be more than a good defender nowadays.

That's my understanding or perception of what Pellergrini is looking for from within his squad. He wants to move the ball more quickly from back to front - as we know, and a centre half with an eye for a long ball as well as the ability to dribble out of the back four with confidence and pick a short forward pass to progress an attack becomes very important.

Last week Brendan Rogers said he saw Gerrard becoming a centre half. As his fitness levels and ability to get up and down as a central midfielder become more of a challenge in his twilight years, his other key attributes fit the profile well and is very much in keeping with the modern requirements for a centre half.

Let's say Gerrard is our centre back. We are playing against Chelsea or Stoke. Who do you want next to him when the corner comes in, Mascherano or Lescott ?

Not really a question for me is it - I've already said what I want from a centre half.

I think what City want is someone who does both of what those two can offer. You only have to look at what Pellers is trying to do in his approach to the game to see this. If such a player exists it might just be the final piece in the puzzle

It's a genuine response to your post. I would like to shag Katy Perry, but chances are, I may not get that opportunity.

If we could find cbs who are fantastic on the ball & great at defending, I wouldn't just dump Lescott, I'd dump Vinny & the others too, none of them are great on the ball & several not very good at defending.

The point is, when the shit hits the fan, would you rather have have Mascherano & Gerrard, or Lescott & Kompany ?

Which makes the most difference ?

Imo, if you put Vinny & JL in Bayern's team, as they were when they played together regularly, then Bayern would not lose even 1o% of their effectiveness on the ball, but would be much more solid at the back.

If you put Gerrard & Mascerano there, they would be shite at defending & add something extra Bayern don't need.

The same goes for City. Our best cb pairing should have been playing together last season, as often as possible for as long as it took to get them working together at full tilt again, & only when it's sorted should the second string start to get games as rotation.

Neither VK or JL has improved as a player since Mancini & now the Count, started fucking them around, & City have not improved defensively as a team.

The thing is I don't disagree with you in any way shape or form - in my initial post on this topic I stated as follows

'my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there'

So in your scenario it's clear that Lescott would be my choice.

The point I'm really making is that it seems to me that Pellergrini wants something different from his centre half, or at least something in addition to just be able to defend. His philosophy appears to be that as he plays 2 up top then he wants to get the ball up to them as quickly as possible, therefore he expects his defenders to play the long ball where necessary as well as be confident in bringing the ball out of defence and linking up quickly with the midfield.

The manager seems clear in the way he wants to play and has openly said he will persevere with this until we get it right away from home in the way we appear to be getting it right at home. So whether there is a centre half out there or not I don't know, but he'll certainly be looking for one that's for sure.

So unless I'm reading the situation wrong, it's irrelevant whether VK and JL would fit in at Bayern etc, it more about what Pellegrini wants and what he believes in.

Oh and by the way good luck with the Katy Perry thing.....you never know!

[PrezIke]

I hate to say this but the modern role of a centre half has evolved to something that requires them to be confident on the ball and more creative with what they do when in possession.

I say evolved though gritted teeth, because my idea of a centre half is someone who defends in the true sense - being physically commanding, winning headers, timing strong challenges, letting the centre forward know he's there first and foremost. However modern day rules of the game mean that a defender cannot do much of the abovementioned without conceding a free kick (or worse still a penner), so they are now having to bring something extra to their game.

Bull shit. It doesn't have to be that way at all. Lescott was hardly a liability in our title winning season wtih his no nonsense defending. Terry's hardly great on the ball is he? Nor is Vidic. Puyol isn't even great on the ball. These players have all had huge roles to play in great teams. You need that solid ball winner. Kompany's often quite happy to charge up the pitch joining attacks - we don't need two doing that. I'd much rather my centre backs stopped anyone scoring and then gave the ball to the midfielders. This notion that everyone needs to be Xavi on the ball is rubbish and was only born out of the wank fest that followed Barca and Spain's dominance with possession football.

i do think one could argue it is an exaggeration to suggest everyone in defence needs to be xavi, but part of the point about the centre backs on a team like ours is not that lescott isn't a good defender (he is in many ways), but does he fit into what we are trying to do, tactically?

someone explain then why lescott is on the bench then? have pellegrini and mancini really had some kind of personal grudge against him? are they both that poor at evaluating talent? seems like a bit strange of a thought for managers with their success rate. lescott did well when we won the title, but we also played a different style, and what happened last year to him then? mancini just decided he was not good enough without a legit reason? i think he felt nasti did well enough, given his potential and performances last year, to warrant chances as developing into a potentially world class cb. this is not exactly common, and by having someone with such potential, who was not so much worse than lescott, and already a bit better at some other things (composure, passing, first touch), makes some sense to play him. lescott is stronger, and better in the air, but we had komps, and lescott also had hurt the team with his errors more so than we saw with nasti, imho, and was why the faith was less placed in him.

terry, vidic and puyol operated under different systems also during their prime as players, during what some may call a different era of the sport, even if not so long ago. puyol also has had some excellent wing backs and passing/creative dm's to look to set things into transition quickly. and the premier league has since gotten stronger as well. you hold the ball too long as a defender and watch what a team like southampton at home will do. this is a trend, i think and no coincidence that someone like lescott, as marginally worse than i suspect pellegrini thinks he is than demichelis at these aspects of the game, is riding the pine. lescott would start on many teams in the premier league, but i suspect pellegrini and his style has a preference for more creative defenders who are more comfortable with the ball.

maybe it's that demi is a native spanish speaker as well, and speaks english, so easier to communicate with several key players on the team too.

i am not in the lescott 'what does he do?' camp, but i can see why pellegrini chooses demichelis right now over lescott, even if demi has also played poorly in some games/situations. if he continues then maybe lescott comes back, but i think he's really just waiting for nasti to return, and/or to see if we sign someone in the next window/over the summer and let nasti play the rest of this year out to see if he improves enough. with nasti, i believe the club believes he is worth playing consistently for now, given our other options (are they really THAT much better?) so he gets a chance to develop as a player. that in itself makes the other legitimate criticisms of nasti's game (lescott is better at x, y and z] a bit more moot.

[PrezIke]

We're not watching the same matches. LESCOTT never looks confident on the ball. Demichelis always finds space, is nothing if not confident, has a lot of the ball and holds/passes it well. He also talks a lot which is not obvious to all his critics it seems (Lescott notoriously quiet).

I saw Kompany make at least 2 howlers ( their goal and trying to dribble past a man 8 yards out). Wonder what would be said if that was Demichelis or Garcia?

In any case we didn't win that match because Aguero (2) and Negredo (1) missed chances that should've been buried - again.

And that's what you lot judge Lescott on. The fact that Demichelis is comfortable giving the ball to the oppsition 3 or 4 times a game doesn't fucking matter, so long as he looks good doing it. Same with Nastasic & as you pointed out, same with Kompany.

They all do it, but you lot are waiting for Lescott to fuck up, so when he actually does, you all jump on him. The rest get a free ride.

Bollocks to the fact that he's our best defender & safer on the ball that all the rest, he doesn't look right when he kicks it, so hang him...

Fucking madness.

that's not fair mate. i hear you about demi giving away possession. nasti and komps make mistakes as well, of course.

i am hearing that you suggest he has been benched, and criticised because of how he looks with the ball...is that why he is on the bench then?

have our last two managers been deceived by the same alleged perception as well?

p.s. i like lescott as a player, and always want him to do well, but with what he has shown, i can get why he is on the bench with what we are trying to do tactically.

sorry, thems the breaks...it wouldn't shock me to see him join a different team soon enough i am gathering (next summer), and be quite useful for them.

those mistakes by demi are why he is not safe, but he is also blending into the team, and the chances he could make a good play with such moves are something pellegrini may be hoping for. with lescott, you know that's very unlikely to happen. let's be honest about that.

it's a risk/reward game pellers is playing with the hand he has been dealt in central defence, and clearly was a big issue to have vince out so much this season...

he is our most important player other than yaya or aguero i think.