We need a new Keeper

[john@staustell]

the evidence suggests he may have benefited from his rest, much like Joe Corrigan.

I believe he was always over-confident, ambling down slowly to dive, and leaping out of his area in the Chelsea debacle. Possibly the coaches have taken him down off his cloud and he has his head in the right area.

Lets hope so anyway.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

The best thing for me in the last couple of games is he seems to be making those brilliant stops we all associated with him for seasons. They'd gone away for awhile.

[aaron bond]

The best thing for me in the last couple of games is he seems to be making those brilliant stops we all associated with him for seasons. They'd gone away for awhile.

He made some excellent saves against Liverpool - was great to see those again.

I think the rest has definitely helped him and he seems to have his confidence back (confidence as opposed to arrogance).

His distribution is still poor though. The direction of his kicks is still a bit of a lottery, and there are times when he's desperate to roll/throw the ball out quickly to begin an attack, however, he sometimes gives it to Yaya or Fernandinho when they're in tight positions, marked by opposing players, and they're immediately in trouble. He needs to learn that it's ok to slow the game down if he has no good options to pass the ball to.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

The best thing for me in the last couple of games is he seems to be making those brilliant stops we all associated with him for seasons. They'd gone away for awhile.

He made some excellent saves against Liverpool - was great to see those again.

I think the rest has definitely helped him and he seems to have his confidence back (confidence as opposed to arrogance).

His distribution is still poor though. The direction of his kicks is still a bit of a lottery, and there are times when he's desperate to roll/throw the ball out quickly to begin an attack, however, he sometimes gives it to Yaya or Fernandinho when they're in tight positions, marked by opposing players, and they're immediately in trouble. He needs to learn that it's ok to slow the game down if he has no good options to pass the ball to.

It's funny how we all see things so differently. I've seen him criticised for exactly the opposite on here on numerous occasions ie not releasing the ball quickly enough.

I see no one has answered my question, his more vociferous critics are all too willing to point out when he cost us points so what I want to know is did he win us points yesterday, any takers?

[Blue Since 76]

Regarding his distribution, it's not great, but that's an added extra for a goalkeeper. It's the same argument about which defender has the best passing stats - surely being able to defend is the first prerequisite .

Yesterday, some credit has to go to Liverpool - whenever Hart had the ball, they pushed up meaning he had to go long. You can argue that's because they know he can't kick, but when you're looking at 10 men who are all standing still and are marked, I'm not sure what any keeper could do. With only Negredo up front, it was also obvious who he was going to aim for.

Hart needs to work on his kicking still, but as a team we need to work out a plan for a team who push up on the defence, as it's happened before, including against Bayern.

[Cocacolajojo1]

Saw it from the ground, rather than tv so maybe i'm blinded..

but 1) his star fish has never and will never work. Panti's always does.
2) his distribution is consistently gash

Go watch the City-Liverpool game from three years ago. Tevez scores twice, stealing a goal from Micah in the process, GazBaz puts it in the back of the net and Joe Hart makes a crucial double save at one point in the second half. Starfish bonanza.

As for the consistently gash, that sums up your post in quite the holistic manner.

[Cocacolajojo1]

The best thing for me in the last couple of games is he seems to be making those brilliant stops we all associated with him for seasons. They'd gone away for awhile.

He made some excellent saves against Liverpool - was great to see those again.

I think the rest has definitely helped him and he seems to have his confidence back (confidence as opposed to arrogance).

His distribution is still poor though. The direction of his kicks is still a bit of a lottery, and there are times when he's desperate to roll/throw the ball out quickly to begin an attack, however, he sometimes gives it to Yaya or Fernandinho when they're in tight positions, marked by opposing players, and they're immediately in trouble. He needs to learn that it's ok to slow the game down if he has no good options to pass the ball to.

It's funny how we all see things so differently. I've seen him criticised for exactly the opposite on here on numerous occasions ie not releasing the ball quickly enough.

I see no one has answered my question, his more vociferous critics are all too willing to point out when he cost us points so what I want to know is did he win us points yesterday, any takers?

I'm not in the Hart out crowd so I think I'm the wrong fish for your hook but I think he saved us at at least 2 points yesterday, potentially all three. It's difficult to say, as always, because what would have happened if this and that and bla bla bla. 2 points at least though.

edit

come to think of it, the entire points costing and point winning this is a bit mind boggling. I mean, Hart makes some nice saves and that's worth something. Then again, Vinni won us one point and without Negredo, we'd be two points poorer. Add Hart's two points to that and together, we won five points yesterday. Clearly there's something wrong with the league table.

[Herb]

It's funny how we all see things so differently. I've seen him criticised for exactly the opposite on here on numerous occasions ie not releasing the ball quickly enough. I see no one has answered my question, his more vociferous critics are all too willing to point out when he cost us points so what I want to know is did he win us points yesterday, any takers?

I'm more s giver than a taker but I'll oblige by saying that Joe Hart was ok yesterday - but nothing better than ok. If you can peel your Joe Hart love goggles off your face for 5 minutes then you'll see that he's no better than average when compared to other premier league keepers - he has his strong points (good at reaction saves and has nice hair) but his downsides - poor positional sense, tendency to panic and make rash decisions, inability to distribute at a pace appropriate to the outfield and accurately (essential in a keepers tool box despite your dissing it as a 'nice to have' - doh!).
All in all he's simply not developed as well as we all hoped and he's not good enough for a side with aspirations to win the PL & the CL.
It's quite sad but unavoidably true that both Joe and Micah are dearly loved by us fans yet they have both failed to keep pace with our improving level of play - yesterdays hopefuls now lagging behind. We need to either develop Costel - who is better than Joe in so many ways already - or go buy a ready made top class keeper.

[dazby]

Herb, can you give an example of his positional sense issues?

[Pretty Boy Lee]

I've said it a thousand times. Keepers can't win you points. Can make 1000 saves and without neggers scoring we don't get them. Simple.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I've said it a thousand times. Keepers can't win you points. Can make 1000 saves and without neggers scoring we don't get them. Simple.

So they can cost you points but not win you points? It's a tough job being a keeper.

[Herb]

Herb, can you give an example of his positional sense issues?

Yep, sure can. In my opinion he generally sets himself up pretty well for free kicks, which would be expected as we have a healthy bias towards goalkeeping in our coaching set up and that's something that he trains for, but his positioning when coping with fluid movement is often comical to watch as he can get in a right old tizz rather than advancing and dealing with players cutting in towards either post (see the dippers first goal where he could advance and take the ball / player but panicked and sat down instead).
His static positioning for corners is generally spot on but his repositioning as the ball floats in is often a worry because he often gets rooted to the spot and leaves the ball to ping about all over rather than putting himself forward to take the ball and control his area.
You need to sit and watch him throughout the game to see it for yourself (motd highlights only serve to deceive) but even if you can't get to the games you'll note the number of fuck-ups seen between Joe and defenders looking to back pass but finding that he's not where they'd expect a keeper to be - that lack of confidence / trust is a tribute to his going missing positionally so often that the defence is tetchy around him.
You'll also have seen many games where we've had many shots on target but had a low conversion rate because of good keeping by the keepers for lowly premiership sides whereas they have 1 or 2 punts at goal and score with a conversion rate of 50 or even 100% because Joe isn't keeping his concentration up and finds himself poorly placed to save.
He's a nice bloke and good at what he's good at, that's reaction saves, but he doesn't have the full suite of skills needed and his stats reveal him to be average overall - and average isn't good enough for us is it?

PS. I should add that I'm happy to see him play when he does as I'm confident that Pellegrini will make the best selection from his available players and I will always give Joe my full support on the field as I do to any player who turns out for us (I'm never impressed by the way some of our fans barrack certain players - Kolarov or Garcia for example because, in my view, that's not supporting).

[Cocacolajojo1]

From whoscored.com

Pass completion rate in percentage:

Hart: 51,1
Pantilimon: 60, 7
Cech: 55,4
Lloris: 43,8
De Gea: 58,3
Szczesny: 64,4
Howard: 58
Mignolet: 63,5
Krul: 51,8

So, although he's clearly one of the weakest of the the top team's goalkeepers when it comes to distribution, he's not that much worse than most of his competitors. The difference between Hart and Cech is three passes in one hundred, to De Gea seven in one hundred. That isn't going to affect the outcome in a game, and if it does, I would really like to see stats on that as well.

Also, Mignolet and Szczesny play in teams that don't like to lump it up. Don't get me wrong, we don't either but we do it more often than said competitors. I would also be very interested to see how the stats compare for just aerial balls, as these are the ones Hart gets slated for. I have a gut feeling he's not that far behind in that department either.

MInd, he's clearly worse at distribution that most of his competitors and there is no reason why this couldn't be fixed over the course of a season or two. Same with Lescott btw (no he's not that bad but you have to be blind to not so see the difference in quality between a player like Demichelis and him, just in this particular aspect).

Edit

Last seasons completion rate, a la Hart

2012-2013 60,5
2011-2012 52,7
2010-2011 48,2
2009-2010 34,6 (albeit, this was at Birmingham)

To me, this is in line with what I've always thought of Hart; he will always improve himself and if he failed, he would make amends for it. His passing improved over the last four seasons, no doubt about it. The large gap between his time in Birmingham and the following season in City must be attributed to the change in game play (more arial balls in Birmingham no doubt) but the steady progression since must be attributed to him. At his peak, he was almost as good as Mignolet or scscscscs in Arsenal are now.

What then explains the regression this season, so far? Perhaps there's some truth in the head and shoulders myth. Complacency crept in.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

So they can cost you points but not win you points? It's a tough job being a keeper.

Can keep what you have I guess, but they don't win you points. That's why strikers get the big money.

[Cocacolajojo1]

So they can cost you points but not win you points? It's a tough job being a keeper.

Can keep what you have I guess, but they don't win you points. That's why strikers get the big money.

I think that's how people used to think and that was/is why keepers are relatively undervalued. Nevertheless, strikers and goalkeepers are similar in that they can singlehandedly win you a game by sheer excellence.

[Blue Since 76]

From whoscored.com

Pass completion rate in percentage:

Hart: 51,1
Pantilimon: 60, 7
Cech: 55,4
Lloris: 43,8
De Gea: 58,3
Szczesny: 64,4
Howard: 58
Mignolet: 63,5
Krul: 51,8

So, although he's clearly one of the weakest of the the top team's goalkeepers when it comes to distribution, he's not that much worse than most of his competitors. The difference between Hart and Cech is three passes in one hundred, to De Gea seven in one hundred. That isn't going to affect the outcome in a game, and if it does, I would really like to see stats on that as well.

Also, Mignolet and Szczesny play in teams that don't like to lump it up. Don't get me wrong, we don't either but we do it more often than said competitors. I would also be very interested to see how the stats compare for just aerial balls, as these are the ones Hart gets slated for. I have a gut feeling he's not that far behind in that department either.

MInd, he's clearly worse at distribution that most of his competitors and there is no reason why this couldn't be fixed over the course of a season or two. Same with Lescott btw (no he's not that bad but you have to be blind to not so see the difference in quality between a player like Demichelis and him, just in this particular aspect).

There won't be any stats on this, but how far were the successful passes? I noticed in Pant's first game that the centre halves went either side of the penalty area, allowing him to just roll the ball out. Since then teams have pushed up, so there was little chance to do it yesterday, meaning he was hitting it long, which affects the chance of being successful.

Mignolet was able to pass the ball out most times, as we only had Negredo trying to close their back 4 down. If your having to lump a high ball into the centre circle, Yaya would have trouble finding a City player more than 50% of the time. It's certainly something Hart needs to improve on, but we have to give him a chance to find a City player

[Cocacolajojo1]

There won't be any stats on this, but how far were the successful passes? I noticed in Pant's first game that the centre halves went either side of the penalty area, allowing him to just roll the ball out. Since then teams have pushed up, so there was little chance to do it yesterday, meaning he was hitting it long, which affects the chance of being successful.

Mignolet was able to pass the ball out most times, as we only had Negredo trying to close their back 4 down. If your having to lump a high ball into the centre circle, Yaya would have trouble finding a City player more than 50% of the time. It's certainly something Hart needs to improve on, but we have to give him a chance to find a City player

Totally agree with this.

It's also a shame that there's not more stats on the different distribution types available. City handed out some amazing stats last year but they've not repeated it since as far as I know. I could give it a go but... it would only show information from our title winning season and that information isn't really fresh anymore. Hart's both improved and deproved (or whatever you call it) since.

[Sister of fu]

I've said it a thousand times. Keepers can't win you points. Can make 1000 saves and without neggers scoring we don't get them. Simple.

Rubbish. If we are wining 1-0 and Hart makes a great save in the last minute say like at Villa the year we won the league then we don't win the league as we would have only got 1 point not 3 so you are wrong.

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I've said it a thousand times. Keepers can't win you points. Can make 1000 saves and without neggers scoring we don't get them. Simple.

Rubbish. If we are wining 1-0 and Hart makes a great save in the last minute say like at Villa the year we won the league then we don't win the league as we would have only got 1 point not 3 so you are wrong.

Also, tell me hart didn't win us a point at spurs away in the cup winning season! Tell rags that shmeichel never won them points. Of course keepers win points.

[Sister of fu]

I've said it a thousand times. Keepers can't win you points. Can make 1000 saves and without neggers scoring we don't get them. Simple.

Rubbish. If we are wining 1-0 and Hart makes a great save in the last minute say like at Villa the year we won the league then we don't win the league as we would have only got 1 point not 3 so you are wrong.

Also, tell me hart didn't win us a point at spurs away in the cup winning season! Tell rags that shmeichel never won them points. Of course keepers win points.

Nicky Weaver vs Ipswich many seasons ago, we won 1-0 because of his display. There are have been 100s of goalkeeper displays where the keeper has won points for a team so I'm not sure if PBL actually watches football matches.