diving!

[zuricity]

Samir Nasri and David Silva , even Yaya are very good ball dribblers. They can weave through players , in the tightest of places.

So when these guys are in flight it is most unusual to see them dive. ( I'm not saying it hasn't or will not happen). It is often so that they are actually taken out.

Young however cannot dribble. His only hope is to get lucky going past a player. He even conciously kicks out at defenders with his left leg to make contact.

The rag players can only run at defenders hoping for contact.

It's the same for Van A*se , you rarely see him going on a mazy dribbling run like Samir or David.

The other trick the rag players use is to flick the ball up towards a defenders hand and try and claim handball. Knowing they don't have the skill or pace to go round the defender.

[Blue Since 76]

There would be massive controversy.There are plenty of cases where there is contact and the player goes down but doesn't have to.Januzi's "fall" was a classic case.There was enough there for it to be a foul but he made more of it than he needed to and that's the problem.Probably the majority of players overdo the fall to try to make sure the ref gives it.There is always a lot of disagreement as it is between the so called experts.

It would be fun to be on a panel that decides if it's a dive or not.

The panel would be the problem, but I would see it being made up of ex-pros and referees. Make sure there's a defender amongst the pros as well and pick players who've been out of the game a few years to try to reduce the old pals act and no one who had been doing media.

They may still be a bit soft on players who get a light contact, but what attacker would take the risk with a 3 game ban looming? If something isn't done, the game will become even more of a farce or we'll return to the days of Nobby Stiles type tackling as referees will think everyone is trying to con them - I'm not sure I want to watch a game where Lee Catermole is more influential than David Silva.

Going back to the rags game, Young should have been a penalty; Januzaj was a foul, although he made the most of it, there was enough contact and hopefully giving the benefit to attackers would stop the theatrics and; Wellbeck's was a 3 game ban - yes there was light contact, but the contact and the fall were completely unrelated.

[john@staustell]

I wasn't actually sure about Janusj the other night - but his reputation already goes before him. Part of the problem is that BT never showed it in replay, whereas if it had been Suarez or any City player we would've had to see it 18 times before the match ended.

[dazby]

I wonder if the same hotspot they use in cricket could assist in determining contact?

[Nigels Tackle]

I wonder if the same hotspot they use in cricket could assist in determining contact?

football is a contact sport...

[Wonderwall]

I wonder if the same hotspot they use in cricket could assist in determining contact?

There is no law that says contact is not allowed. There is no law to say you cannot put your hands on players either.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I wonder if the same hotspot they use in cricket could assist in determining contact?

football is a contact sport...

Yep, there can be contact but no foul, I think it was Halsey I heard using the term 'initiating contact' during commentary in reference to someone who had dived, can't recall who it was but most likely Young or Januzaj or Wellbrilliant or Shrek or E*ra or .......

[Hutch's Shoulder]

There was a report this morning that Blatter wanted a time penalty as a deterrent to diving. Although on closer inspection it looks like he means players who get treatment but are not badly injured. He seems to propose them waiting longer before returning to play. It shows these sort of issues have some visibility but sounds like another can of worms to implement: how to decide if player is really injured or feigning etc.

[Tokyo Blue]

Feigning injury is already a yellow card offence. Blatter might want to try actually enforcing the rules instead of looking for publicity for himself.

[Bianchi on Ice]

Best thing this club can do, and Pellegrini can do, is establish a mindset that is against all this diving bullshit. Lets take the moral high ground here and just play the game. Hey the Club might even get noticed and given some credit for it!! Imagine that...City the saviours of sportsmanship

[Twobob]

There was a report this morning that Blatter wanted a time penalty as a deterrent to diving. Although on closer inspection it looks like he means players who get treatment but are not badly injured. He seems to propose them waiting longer before returning to play. It shows these sort of issues have some visibility but sounds like another can of worms to implement: how to decide if player is really injured or feigning etc.

So when someone does actually get fouled and does need a bit of treatment, that players team are stuck with 10 men for longer while the offenders team are full strenth. Fuck off back in yer coffin Blatter.

[Nigels Tackle]

Best thing this club can do, and Pellegrini can do, is establish a mindset that is against all this diving bullshit. Lets take the moral high ground here and just play the game. Hey the Club might even get noticed and given some credit for it!! Imagine that...City the saviours of sportsmanship

moral high ground - with micah 'tom daley' richards in the squad?

[Bianchi on Ice]

Best thing this club can do, and Pellegrini can do, is establish a mindset that is against all this diving bullshit. Lets take the moral high ground here and just play the game. Hey the Club might even get noticed and given some credit for it!! Imagine that...City the saviours of sportsmanship

moral high ground - with micah 'tom daley' richards in the squad?

Thats what I meant by Pellegrini establishing a mindset. Its a kind way of saying give a bollocking to anyone at the Club who does it

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I think that's a really important point you make and why no panel will ever sit to adjudicate dives or 'simulation'. Ex professionals as pundits talk about 'having the right to go down' under any contact, but nobody has ever defined exactly how that works, if contact constitutes a minor brush of leg against leg, how does that not translate to a penalty when a player is trying to wear the attacker's shirt. All part of the same problem to me in identifying transgressions inside the area.

Reality is that if you are fouled, you should fall down in a natural manner if indeed the contact is substantial enough to warrant hitting the deck. If you aren't fouled, you look like a cunt as you launch yourself into the air to do a triple salko in order to 'convince' the referee of the severity of the contact. Now for me, even if there has been a foul, this gymnastic shit of arched backs in midair, howls of agony, 5 rolls on the floor etc, are just as much simulation as a blatant dove, as it is simulating that the situation is worse than it actually was in order to influence the referees decision.

Richard Keyes was spot on this weekend, and several other times this season when he called out the ex-pros of Andy Gray and this week Alex McLeish for shying away from calling Welbeck and Januzaj cheats. He would never have had the balls to do it under sky, and particularly not against united, but clearly he has more freedom of expression in Qatar, which in itself shows half of the problem with British TV and punditry.

The fact that Keyes is calling it out as cheating on a foreign tv station, whereas the ex-pros like to call it simulation or whatever, shows the cultural problem that has evolved amongst the British media and particularly ex-pros of facing up to the issue.

Good sense from Doug and Spart here.
Can you imagine the uproar if an ex rag was on a panel that banned one of our players for a crucial game?
Plus even studying replays can generate vastly different opinions.
Managers can make the difference. "I won't have diving from anyone in my team". But they are under pressure for results, so won't. Maybe Audrey Roberts could do it with us, because we are that good we don't need to do it.
In fairness, I think we are not too bad at the moment.
I often think back to Aguero's goal and thank the lord he chose to stay on his feet and lash the ball in the net rather than go down when Onouha clearly fouled him. That is the way it should be done.

[Peter Doherty (AGAIG)]

I think that's a really important point you make and why no panel will ever sit to adjudicate dives or 'simulation'. Ex professionals as pundits talk about 'having the right to go down' under any contact, but nobody has ever defined exactly how that works, if contact constitutes a minor brush of leg against leg, how does that not translate to a penalty when a player is trying to wear the attacker's shirt. All part of the same problem to me in identifying transgressions inside the area.

Reality is that if you are fouled, you should fall down in a natural manner if indeed the contact is substantial enough to warrant hitting the deck. If you aren't fouled, you look like a cunt as you launch yourself into the air to do a triple salko in order to 'convince' the referee of the severity of the contact. Now for me, even if there has been a foul, this gymnastic shit of arched backs in midair, howls of agony, 5 rolls on the floor etc, are just as much simulation as a blatant dove, as it is simulating that the situation is worse than it actually was in order to influence the referees decision.

Richard Keyes was spot on this weekend, and several other times this season when he called out the ex-pros of Andy Gray and this week Alex McLeish for shying away from calling Welbeck and Januzaj cheats. He would never have had the balls to do it under sky, and particularly not against united, but clearly he has more freedom of expression in Qatar, which in itself shows half of the problem with British TV and punditry.

The fact that Keyes is calling it out as cheating on a foreign tv station, whereas the ex-pros like to call it simulation or whatever, shows the cultural problem that has evolved amongst the British media and particularly ex-pros of facing up to the issue.

Good sense from Doug and Spart here.
Can you imagine the uproar if an ex rag was on a panel that banned one of our players for a crucial game?
Plus even studying replays can generate vastly different opinions.
Managers can make the difference. "I won't have diving from anyone in my team". But they are under pressure for results, so won't. Maybe Audrey Roberts could do it with us, because we are that good we don't need to do it.
In fairness, I think we are not too bad at the moment.
I often think back to Aguero's goal and thank the lord he chose to stay on his feet and lash the ball in the net rather than go down when Onouha clearly fouled him. That is the way it should be done.

In the first game of the season Navas threw himself on the floor and started rolling around holding his face. He's done nothing remotely like it since. I think Pellegrini tells them to desist from this kind of degeneracy, leaving it to our moyesy neighbours instead.

[Twobob]

I think that's a really important point you make and why no panel will ever sit to adjudicate dives or 'simulation'. Ex professionals as pundits talk about 'having the right to go down' under any contact, but nobody has ever defined exactly how that works, if contact constitutes a minor brush of leg against leg, how does that not translate to a penalty when a player is trying to wear the attacker's shirt. All part of the same problem to me in identifying transgressions inside the area.

Reality is that if you are fouled, you should fall down in a natural manner if indeed the contact is substantial enough to warrant hitting the deck. If you aren't fouled, you look like a cunt as you launch yourself into the air to do a triple salko in order to 'convince' the referee of the severity of the contact. Now for me, even if there has been a foul, this gymnastic shit of arched backs in midair, howls of agony, 5 rolls on the floor etc, are just as much simulation as a blatant dove, as it is simulating that the situation is worse than it actually was in order to influence the referees decision.

Richard Keyes was spot on this weekend, and several other times this season when he called out the ex-pros of Andy Gray and this week Alex McLeish for shying away from calling Welbeck and Januzaj cheats. He would never have had the balls to do it under sky, and particularly not against united, but clearly he has more freedom of expression in Qatar, which in itself shows half of the problem with British TV and punditry.

The fact that Keyes is calling it out as cheating on a foreign tv station, whereas the ex-pros like to call it simulation or whatever, shows the cultural problem that has evolved amongst the British media and particularly ex-pros of facing up to the issue.

Good sense from Doug and Spart here.
Can you imagine the uproar if an ex rag was on a panel that banned one of our players for a crucial game?
Plus even studying replays can generate vastly different opinions.
Managers can make the difference. "I won't have diving from anyone in my team". But they are under pressure for results, so won't. Maybe Audrey Roberts could do it with us, because we are that good we don't need to do it.
In fairness, I think we are not too bad at the moment.
I often think back to Aguero's goal and thank the lord he chose to stay on his feet and lash the ball in the net rather than go down when Onouha clearly fouled him. That is the way it should be done.

In the first game of the season Navas threw himself on the floor and started rolling around holding his face. He's done nothing remotely like it since. I think Pellegrini tells them to desist from this kind of degeneracy, leaving it to our moyesy neighbours instead.

Allways remember (in fact its the only thing I do remember of that period as I have had it removed for my sanity) is when Pearce lambasted Corradi for diving at the swamp. Corradi was wank though.

[MilnersJaw]

moral high ground - with micah 'tom daley' richards in the squad?

Don't worry mate he injures himself every time he gets on the diving board.

[Blue Since 76]

Allways remember (in fact its the only thing I do remember of that period as I have had it removed for my sanity) is when Pearce lambasted Corradi for diving at the swamp. Corradi was wank though.

And Corradi got the hump with him for being named publicly and I don't recall one other manager backing Pearce on it. They all only have a problem with other teams doing it to them and it's about time something was done about it. It's virtually impossible for the referees to spot and can be managed after the event, even if it means someone lost on the day.

[Blue Since 76]

Good sense from Doug and Spart here.
Can you imagine the uproar if an ex rag was on a panel that banned one of our players for a crucial game?
Plus even studying replays can generate vastly different opinions.
Managers can make the difference. "I won't have diving from anyone in my team". But they are under pressure for results, so won't. Maybe Audrey Roberts could do it with us, because we are that good we don't need to do it.
In fairness, I think we are not too bad at the moment.
I often think back to Aguero's goal and thank the lord he chose to stay on his feet and lash the ball in the net rather than go down when Onouha clearly fouled him. That is the way it should be done.

Have a big enough panel and require a large majority, say 2/3. If one of our players dives and gets banned for a crucial period, so be it. I suspect more guilty players will get away with it than innocents banned, but hopefully the risk will make a few of them more willing to stay on their feet.

Managers can make the difference, but they won't.

[Wonderwall]

Mr Blatter is wading in with his thoughts on diving
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25586007

Sepp Blatter: Fifa president wants time penalty for diving in football

Fifa president Sepp Blatter has proposed the use of a time penalty as a deterrent to diving in football.
Blatter feels players who get treatment but are not badly injured should have to wait longer before rejoining play.
"I find it deeply irritating, when the half-dead player comes back to life as soon as they have left the pitch," said Blatter, 77, in his weekly column.

"The referee can make the player wait until the numerical disadvantage has had an effect on the game."
Blatter, the head of world football's governing body, added: "In practical terms, this is a time penalty and it could cause play-actors to rethink.
"The touchline appears to have acquired powers of revival which even leading medical specialists cannot explain."
Former Premier League referee Dermot Gallagher agrees simulation is an issue in the game, but feels penalising players in Blatter's proposed way may not be feasible.
"You're going to need a very, very brave referee to say a players wasn't really injured, I'm not sure it's a real solution," said Gallagher.
Blatter's comments come two days after Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho criticised one of his own players, Oscar, for diving in their victory at Southampton.
Mourinho also urged referees to "kill the situation" after his Brazilian attacker was cautioned for appearing to dive in the the area after rounding Southampton goalkeeper Kelvin Davis.
Blatter is intent on ridding the game of simulation, which has prompted 13 yellow cards in the Premier League this season.
"Even though simulation is incredibly unfair and looks preposterous when viewed in a replay, some people regard it as smart or in the worst case as a harmless misdemeanour," added Blatter, who has been re-elected three times since becoming Fifa president in 1998.
"The longest breaks in the game nowadays are almost exclusively the result of dives, simulation and play-acting to feign injury.
"This kind of thing is treated with scorn in other sporting disciplines but it has become a normal and accepted part of football nowadays."

Most bookings for simulation by club (since August 2008)
Tottenham - 13
Chelsea - 12
Manchester United - 12
Arsenal - 8
Liverpool - 8
Source: Opta

Manchester United attacker Adnan Januzaj, 18, has received three of his five yellow cards this season for simulation.
United fanzine Red Issue, via its Twitter account, called on manager David Moyes to speak to the youngster as well as Ashley Young, who has been booked for diving this season.
Fifa's vice-president Jim Boyce has previously proposed the use of video evidence to help take retrospective action against divers, a move which Gallagher would still welcome.
"I think most people in this country would adhere to retrospective action," added Gallagher, who was a Fifa listed referee for eight years.
"For me, I think an ex-referee, an ex-manager and an ex-member of PFA could look at video evidence and if all three agree on a dive, it's a three match ban."
As part of his proposals to clamp down on cheating within the game, Blatter emphasised Fifa's stance on whether the ball should be put out of play if a player is injured.
"The ball is in the referees' court," added Blatter.
"The instructions are now clear on this matter: if a player is lying on the floor, the opposing team are not required to put the ball into touch.
"The referee should only intervene if he believes a serious injury has occurred."

Roberto Martinez is also having his say
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25587737

Everton manager Roberto Martinez wants diving 'eradicated'

Everton manager Roberto Martinez believes everyone in football has a responsibility to help eradicate diving from the sport.
Following Fifa president Sepp Blatter's proposal for the use of a time penalty as a deterrent, Martinez says simulation has become a problem.
"It is our fault," said the Spaniard.
"It has been creeping in and has been happening for a couple of seasons. It is down to all of us to try to eradicate that."

Premier League bookings for simulation (from August 2008)
Gareth Bale - 7
Fernando Torres - 3
Adnan Januzaj - 3
Liam Lawrence - 2
David Bentley - 2
Ashley Young - 2
Luis Suarez - 2
Daniel Sturridge - 2
Javier Hernandez - 2
Oscar - 2
Andy Carroll - 2
Emmanuel Eboue - 2
Source: Opta

Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho criticised one of his own players, Oscar, for diving in his side's victory at Southampton on Wednesday. The Portuguese boss urged referees to "kill the situation" after his Brazilian attacker was cautioned after going around Southampton goalkeeper Kelvin Davis. Ahead of Everton's FA Cup third round visit of Championship QPR on Saturday, Martinez said referees needed "sympathy" when it came to making important decisions.
"It is so difficult to make big calls at the moment because you have certain players that more often than not try to simulate and try to go to ground easily," said Martinez, who has played or managed in Britain since 1995.
"That makes the referees decision much harder. We all need to accept and understand that referees, if they are not 100%, are not going to give the decisions."
He added that the British game now had players "trying to buy decisions".
"Unfortunately, it has been happening and, with a mixture of cultures in the last few seasons, we are going to be getting that side of the game," he said. "I don't think it is something we should allow to creep in."
Fifa's vice-president Jim Boyce has proposed the use of video evidence to help take retrospective action against divers, a move that former Premier League referee Dermot Gallagher would also welcome.