diving!

[dikdok]

Football is definitely a contact sport so the above problems will always be a matter of interpretation but what about grabbing? Are there any rules that say one player may not actually hold on to another part (cf Vinnie Jones) of another player. I am thinking particularly of grabbing at shirts in the penalty box during free kicks and corners.
Does anyone know?
Thanks.

[patrickblue]

MP has had his say on the matter.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... ts-2984066

Manuel Pellegrini has defended referees and claimed the Premier League is blighted by cheating.

Referees have come under fire this week with players accused of diving to con them, and Manchester City Pellegrini said he sympathised with the officials.

"I think it is very difficult to be a referee," said Pellegrini. "Players play too quickly and are always trying to cheat because football is cheating.

"They are always trying to take advantage for their team, so it is very difficult for them and I respect them.

"No-one likes it when the referee whistles against your team when it's wrong, but a lot of time it can be to give you an advantage."

Former FA chairman David Bernstein has accused managers of being too tough on referees, which prompted the League Managers' Association to hit back at him.

Manchester United boss David Moyes criticised Howard Webb for failing to give his side a penalty in their 2-1 defeat to Tottenham on New Year's Day when Ashley Young was brought down by Hugo Lloris.

Both him and Martinez seem quite happy to damn gollum with their comments.

[Bianchi on Ice]

All it takes is a few quiet, firm words from the managers at certain times...hopefully Pellegrini does it already...I think he senses that our footballing culture is not prepared for the blatant gamesmanship week in and out that weve seen from other countries over the years. Im not saying UK players are innocent, theyre not, but weve a better chance of eradicating it from our game than the spanish, Italians and south americans among others IMO because its a relatively new subject here.

[Twobob]

Mr Blatter is wading in with his thoughts on diving
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25586007

Roberto Martinez is also having his say
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25587737

Martinez is dead on - it can only be erradicated by people in the game, Blatter is a cock and doesnt understand football.

The more I read and hear Martinez thoughts and observations the more respect I am getting for him - I think I have man love for the guy!

Glad to see MP is also coming out too - the managers of the 'cleaner' clubs need to get together against the Diving clubs and 'out' them at every chance. Quite telling that the clubs known as diving cheats are statistically high on the lists for getting cards for it, there's many, many that they do and arent pulled up on and its comforting to know it isnt just us with blue-tinted glasses on.

[BlueinBosnia]

Both him and Martinez seem quite happy to damn gollum with their comments.

I wonder what kind of relationships Pellers will build up with other managers? I assume, from Martinez allegedly being approached over a Number 2 position here (not in the Poyet sense) that the two have had communication.

Did Mancini ever form any friendly/mutual respect relationships with anyone while he was in charge? I know there was animosity between him and WhiskeyPiss, and a lot of press speculation regarding Hughes, but don't know of any 'unwritten alliances'...

[Twobob]

Allways remember (in fact its the only thing I do remember of that period as I have had it removed for my sanity) is when Pearce lambasted Corradi for diving at the swamp. Corradi was wank though.

And Corradi got the hump with him for being named publicly and I don't recall one other manager backing Pearce on it. They all only have a problem with other teams doing it to them and it's about time something was done about it. It's virtually impossible for the referees to spot and can be managed after the event, even if it means someone lost on the day.

I agree, if retropective action is to be taken on diving then the punnishement should be quite severe, large fine for player, ban and if it happens a lot during a season then a points reduction.

And I seem to recall he was a lone voice, even Taggert didnt condem it, pot calling kettle black. As for Corrradi - we didnt really see much differance him having the hump or not.

[Herb]

It's wrong and should be dealt with as it doesn't have a place in the modern game but I do recall that we had a spell where penalties were awarded thick & fast to our own little penalty king - mind you that was in the early 70's when Franny was at his penalty peak so to speak - 14 penalties scored by him and mostly won by him in one season if I remember right? Not saying that he was a diver but he certainly ran at them in a manner that made it difficult to get out of his way so that he didn't fall over them.

[JamieMCFC]

I am starting to think the RAGS practice it in training.JIZZINYOUREYE always looks to come in side on the edge off the penalty area before diving at any type of contact.

I wouldn't be surprised if some clubs started practicing diving from a young age. My son use to go to a camp that brought in youth coaches from the Premier League. It was about 5 years ago when one of the youth coaches from Newcastle taught him how to dive.

[dikdok]

Football is definitely a contact sport so the above problems will always be a matter of interpretation but what about grabbing? Are there any rules that say one player may not actually hold on to another part (cf Vinnie Jones) of another player. I am thinking particularly of grabbing at shirts in the penalty box during free kicks and corners.
Does anyone know?
Thanks.

So no one knows the answer then? Anyone know what this google thing does?

[blue-nova]

There would be massive controversy.There are plenty of cases where there is contact and the player goes down but doesn't have to. Januzi's "fall" was a classic case.There was enough there for it to be a foul but he made more of it than he needed to and that's the problem.Probably the majority of players overdo the fall to try to make sure the ref gives it.There is always a lot of disagreement as it is between the so called experts.

It would be fun to be on a panel that decides if it's a dive or not.

You'd have to keep it simple. There are dives all the time with minimal contact or exaggeration, like Suarez and Lescott, but you'd have to let these go.

The only situation would be no contact at all and where the player appealed for a penalty - like the Oscar one against Southampton. Punish those properly with immediate, escalating bans (denying a goal scoring opportunity is a ban, so trying to cheat for a penalty AND to get someone sent off should be similar) and players would have to try and stay on their feet. Mourinho said Oscar was anticipating contact and it didn't come so fair he should be punished. If players have to take that into account then they are going to think twice about any dive.

Yellow cards for most attackers are pointless as they probably won't pick up many more all season. Young could dive eight or nine times over the season and still never get banned.

[nottsblue]

Ban divers. Start at the swamp. The worst offenders. Progress to Stamford Bridge and Anfield. The message will soon filter down. A 3 match ban for diving with no or the minimal contact, Young in that Euro game, Jismjazz the other week, Oscar v Saints etc. Clear and conclusive with no arguments. Next offence is 5 matches. Soon stop it as players, although a bit thick in the main, would soon learn.

The grey area is this newish phenonomen of leaving a trailing leg to anticipate contact from defender, ie looking for a penner. Where the fuck did this come from by the way? Adam Johnson has done it for us in the past and i hate it. Almost as bad as the Tom Daley impersonators. This also needs to be stamped out but this is more difficult to police as a bloke running fast who is clipped will be put of balance and also sometimes players dive over to escape a clattering or injury and aren't looking for a penner. Owen,by the way, is a fuckin turd on commentary with this. You'll notice he always remarks "could have been a penalty there if he left his leg in", or "there was contact and he had the right to go down". Fuck off. Football is a physical game. You will get pushing and shoving and little kicks as part and parcel of the game. Look at corner kicks. If we gave pens for slight contact when running with ball every single corner has a worse off the ball pushing/shoving/tugging at shirt match and each one would by definition warrant a penalty.
Unsure of this for punishment. Retrospectively is the answer but the ideas of a panel fill me with dread. We know certain referees are susceptible to handing certain teams big decisions so why a panel deciding diving would be any different i fail to see. I do think it needs to come from refs themselves. After all, if they got the decisions right first time more often it would solve a lot of problems. Well done by the way to the ref who booked Oscar. Very brave decision. Correct but nonetheless brave. Similarly Webb on Wednesday could have easily been fooled by Welbeck and in previous seasons undoubtably would have given a penalty.

Sorry for long one but I think its an issue that if not dealt with will get worse

[everyonehatesus]

I must admit to likikng the sin bin idea, if its thought to be a dive then off the pitch for 10 mins, the team will soon get pissed off with their own letting them down and sort it betweeen them. It has a instant impact on the player and know need to bans given where the club siplmy play someone else in that position, when you're in need to get back in the game the last thing you will want to risk is letting others down by diving.

[Blue Since 76]

The grey area is this newish phenonomen of leaving a trailing leg to anticipate contact from defender, ie looking for a penner. Where the fuck did this come from by the way? Adam Johnson has done it for us in the past and i hate it. Almost as bad as the Tom Daley impersonators. This also needs to be stamped out but this is more difficult to police as a bloke running fast who is clipped will be put of balance and also sometimes players dive over to escape a clattering or injury and aren't looking for a penner.

The trailing leg is a tricky one, but the defenders have worked it out - pull out and watch Wellbeck/Young fall over. If that was a 3 match ban, the trailing leg would have to stop due to the risk of a defender making you look a tit

[BmoreBlue]

cannot for the life of me comprehend that ashley young has only been carded twice for diving since 2008. seems impossible.

[BlueinBosnia]

cannot for the life of me comprehend that ashley young has only been carded twice for diving since 2008. seems impossible.

It's the times the ref falls for it that get picked up for post-match criticism, though, more often than not...

[Green & Blue]

Next seasons United kit, swimming hats and goggles sold separately.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

cannot for the life of me comprehend that ashley young has only been carded twice for diving since 2008. seems impossible.

Therein lies the problem for me. We have a punishment in place for diving but don't bloody use it.

Watching the prem highlights last night I finally saw the 3 dives everyone talked at the swamp about and correct me if I'm wrong but none of them got booked.

[Im_Spartacus]

Therein lies the problem for me. We have a punishment in place for diving but don't bloody use it.

Watching the prem highlights last night I finally saw the 3 dives everyone talked at the swamp about and correct me if I'm wrong but none of them got booked.

Januzaj did, but the other two arguably, to 'the letter of the law' there was some contact, so webb's only way out is to suggest that there wasn't enough contact for a penalty. But our logic is seemingly that if there wasn't enough contact to warrant a penalty, then the player by definition, in the referees eyes, must have cheated?

I think that's whatever home really struggles to understand.

All it needs is the referees to take a zero tolerance approach to it.......but until that is the case across Europe, it would be opposed by the FA and particularly the clubs on the basis of a mental argument that it would put our clubs at a disadvantage if they aren't allowed a level playing field to practise this nonsense.

[Moonchesteri]

I think that's a really important point you make and why no panel will ever sit to adjudicate dives or 'simulation'. Ex professionals as pundits talk about 'having the right to go down' under any contact, but nobody has ever defined exactly how that works, if contact constitutes a minor brush of leg against leg, how does that not translate to a penalty when a player is trying to wear the attacker's shirt. All part of the same problem to me in identifying transgressions inside the area.

Reality is that if you are fouled, you should fall down in a natural manner if indeed the contact is substantial enough to warrant hitting the deck. If you aren't fouled, you look like a cunt as you launch yourself into the air to do a triple salko in order to 'convince' the referee of the severity of the contact. Now for me, even if there has been a foul, this gymnastic shit of arched backs in midair, howls of agony, 5 rolls on the floor etc, are just as much simulation as a blatant dove, as it is simulating that the situation is worse than it actually was in order to influence the referees decision.

Richard Keyes was spot on this weekend, and several other times this season when he called out the ex-pros of Andy Gray and this week Alex McLeish for shying away from calling Welbeck and Januzaj cheats. He would never have had the balls to do it under sky, and particularly not against united, but clearly he has more freedom of expression in Qatar, which in itself shows half of the problem with British TV and punditry. The fact that Keyes is calling it out as cheating on a foreign tv station, whereas the ex-pros like to call it simulation or whatever, shows the cultural problem that has evolved amongst the British media and particularly ex-pros of facing up to the issue.

Very good post that I fully agree with

[Douglas Higginbottom]

I am now officially impressed.They have got Smalling diving now.