enland U17s 0-7 Holland U17s

[Wonderwall]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -show.html

Nice to city being mentioned with a goof player

[Ted Hughes]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2952745/England-U17s-0-7-Holland-U17s-Young-Lions-produce-Friday-13-horror-show.html

Nice to city being mentioned with a goof player

He's a bit one footed but he's not that bad..

[Ted Hughes]

The bad news is, our lad was playing centre back; Cameron Humphries. Sounds like he was the victim of some comedy goalkeeping.

I didn't realise Dilrosun was only 16. I was rather critical of him recently, for being one footed & rather headless at times, but it's a bit more understandable at that age. Lucas Nmecha got on after 62 mins. I saw him play a couple of years ago & he looked a talent, playing alongside older kids, he was only about 13 at the time. Will Patching on the bench. I'll wager he's better than anything England had on the pitch.

I noticed there's a rag called Callum Gribbin. He won't make it.

Marting Tyler: "Rooney, still going strong at 45, just signed his his new 6 year deal for £300,000 a week, oohughhhrr lovely pass..... OOOUGHHHH.... GRIBBIN...."

Doesn't work.

[Peter Doherty (AGAIG)]

Our under 18s just beaten Stoke's at their place 0-3 (Frenandes, Nemane and Hardy scored the goals).

[twosips]

u16s beat em by the same score too apparently.

fuck you, stoke

[Mikhail Chigorin]

u16s beat em by the same score too apparently.

fuck you, stoke

Very pleasing indeed.

[Im_Spartacus]

No idea whether City were invited or have other commitments, but I've just spent a very enjoyable afternoon wandering round the pitches of the Al Kass Tournament at Aspire in Doha watching a pretty good standard of u17 football involving Real Madrid, Altetico Madrid, Juventus, Roma, Ajax, PSG, River Plate amongst several others.

Some real stand out players on all the teams I've seen both live and on the TV in recent days, but I still can't help but think that at this age, to be the next big thing, you probably wouldn't be playing in the under 17s, you would be in the top age group or even training with the seniors.

I wonder for elite clubs like these what the actual percentage is whom actually make it with the club, and how many have to move on to get ahead in the game, as the percentages seem astonishingly small.

Taking that a step further, I wonder whether we have actually got a target % from each intake that we expect or demand will reach a certain standard?

[twosips]

Depends how old they are i guess. If you're 17, then no, you're probably right they won't be playing for the u17s still. But there will be some 15 year olds there, even 14. That young. Some of them will have serious potential. Chances are you've probably witnessed one or two future £40m players today still very much taking their baby steps.

[Ted Hughes]

No idea whether City were invited or have other commitments, but I've just spent a very enjoyable afternoon wandering round the pitches of the Al Kass Tournament at Aspire in Doha watching a pretty good standard of u17 football involving Real Madrid, Altetico Madrid, Juventus, Roma, Ajax, PSG, River Plate amongst several others.

Some real stand out players on all the teams I've seen both live and on the TV in recent days, but I still can't help but think that at this age, to be the next big thing, you probably wouldn't be playing in the under 17s, you would be in the top age group or even training with the seniors.

I wonder for elite clubs like these what the actual percentage is whom actually make it with the club, and how many have to move on to get ahead in the game, as the percentages seem astonishingly small.

Taking that a step further, I wonder whether we have actually got a target % from each intake that we expect or demand will reach a certain standard?

I heard rumours we declined.

It stands to reason that most of the top clubs' kids won't be playing in their squads very often, as they are full of top players. Imo, if we went back in time to Pearce's squad, & made the current kids available, 90% of the squad would be made up oh homegrown kids, as most of them are better already, than most of the players in that team.

I think it's difficult to set an exact target, as some of the best kids may find they lack something at the top level. What we can be sure of at City, is that most kids who don't make it, won't miss out due to lack of talent. Pozo for instance was lightweight & now has to find a way to combat that. He is easily good enough as a footballer to play in City's first team though. But he was nowhere near it in the position selected. If he can't adjust, he'll be out the door at some point, no matter how good he is. Lopes will have to get involved more if he is to make it & track back more.He is also easily good enough as a footballer. Most of them are.

Soriano, Vieira etc have said that City are looking to have a majority of homegrown players making up the team in the future. I think it's possible, but obviously it's not usual for teams to get so many through. We will be treading new ground if we succeed.

But I think we will do it.

[getdressedmctavish]

I think its something like 90% of those who don't male it at 20 go out of the game for good, not even filtering down to non league.

[Im_Spartacus]

I think its something like 90% of those who don't male it at 20 go out of the game for good, not even filtering down to non league.

I've heard something similar....but that includes all those at the lower end of the football pyramid who have nowhere to go after being released by Bury, Rochdale etc. So the questions for city should be

1: 'what constitutes making it?'
2: 'what is our end game?'

In response to question 1, surely we want some of the youth players to eventually filter through to first team level. There must be a measure in place for that, eg a target, otherwise how do we know how we are doing? I appreciate Ted's point, but there has to be a target, a point at which this academy is either financially viable or not.....and a set of criteria on which the director of the academy and his staff are judged....that could be answered by question 2, in terms of income generated from selling those who just fall short of the grade - although I expect this will most likely just cover the costs of the academy given the likely small sums involved.

[Ted Hughes]

I think its something like 90% of those who don't male it at 20 go out of the game for good, not even filtering down to non league.

I've heard something similar....but that includes all those at the lower end of the football pyramid who have nowhere to go after being released by Bury, Rochdale etc. So the questions for city should be

1: 'what constitutes making it?'
2: 'what is our end game?'

In response to question 1, surely we want some of the youth players to eventually filter through to first team level. There must be a measure in place for that, eg a target, otherwise how do we know how we are doing? I appreciate Ted's point, but there has to be a target, a point at which this academy is either financially viable or not.....and a set of criteria on which the director of the academy and his staff are judged....that could be answered by question 2, in terms of income generated from selling those who just fall short of the grade - although I expect this will most likely just cover the costs of the academy given the likely small sums involved.

The running costs will be taken care of by selling off the players we don't use. The building costs are as much for the first team & the club offices as the academy facilities. I imagine most of the expensive stuff done there day to day will involve the first team as much as the kids, but perhaps they can wangle it through the books as academy costs & therefore may be deductable from ffp. If so, it may appear to be losing money, even if it isn't.

The stated aim is a first team which contains a significant number of home grown players. Vieira has said that it is failure if the academy doesn't produce that. They haven't put a solid figure on it, but they made it clear enough they mean a decent percentage of the first team preferably, not just a couple of players.

I recon we probably have at least 20 kids or more, amongst the EDS, U18s, U16s who are genuine prospects for the first team, as well as plenty more who I would expect to be still playing in the leagues 10 years from now. That's basing it by comparison with previous players who have been at City, & the level they have ended up. If Glen Whelan for example, can play a full career at often Premier League level, then I expect many of these lads to do the same, provided they don't turn into pissheads, thugs, theives, rapists, murderers etc, like many from the previous regime.

The other thing to consider, is we also have players abroad who are technically part of the academy, who may never actually play there & probably more will appear in the future.. Each one will probably make a small profit.

[Ted Hughes]

Here is an interesting piece from Vieira, back in 2012, which is about England, but gives a pretty good insight into what City's aims are.

He mentions the figure of 5 players out of 20 talented ones, should be playing in the first team.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... -Park.html

Patrick Vieira: English coaching system let players down but hope is on horizon with St George's Park
English football has let down generations of players with its failed coaching culture, according to France’s former World Cup and European Championship winner Patrick Vieira.

Vieira’s damning assessment came 24 hours after the Football Association opened its £105 million national football centre at St George’s Park in Burton. The former Arsenal captain speaks from a position of experience.

Since 2003 he has been heavily involved in youth development, having set up his own academy in Senegal. Now a senior Manchester City executive, he is also frequently seen at his club’s academy fixtures. But he has developed a disparaging opinion of the quality of youth-football coaching in this country.

“For a big country like England, with the number of kids who love the game, you don’t produce enough talent,” he said. “I strongly believe one of the reasons is the coaches. They need to review how to coach the kids from eight years old to 21.

“If you have a group of 20 really talented players at eight years of age, if you don’t get five involved in the first team that means we have done something wrong and not coached them the way we were supposed to.

“When you have a good nine-year-old, you have to improve that talent year after year. You get to the point where he is not good enough, you have to ask how come you lost him. It means the system is wrong.”



And for Vieira, the Burton-on-Trent facility will be no quick fix, pointing to the long-term visions of both France with its Clairefontaine centre and Spain with the Ciudad del Fútbol.

“With Clairefontaine producing someone like Thierry Henry, it took about 10 years,” said Vieira, speaking as an ambassador for Western Union’s new PASS initiative for promoting football in schools.

“But when you believe in a project you have to give yourself time. Everyone is talking about Spain now but Barcelona have been working on this for the last 30 years. You have to be patient. You may see the first players coming through in the next 10 years.”

The 36 year-old believes the wealth and competitiveness of the Premier League may paradoxically also have mitigated against developing England stars. Too often Premier League clubs have turned to ready-made talent from abroad without having the courage to use English-born youngsters.

The FA abandoned its centre of excellence at Lilleshall in 1999, under Howard Wilkinson’s charter for quality – described yesterday by Michael Owen as a “sad day” for him and his fellow ­graduates. It meant there has been no outlet for high-quality competition between the nation’s most promising players, although Vieira sees the new Elite Player Performance Plan and it’s Under-21 league as an important step towards improving matters.

“The big problem in this country is losing a lot of players from the age of 18 to 21 because the games programme was not good enough,” he said. “What’s happening here is really important, especially with the Under 21 league. It will be very important for developing English players in the future. The people running the English game realised they are far behind other countries, that something is wrong in the system, and they are trying to make it work.”

Vieira does see cause for hope, and identifies the qualities that are visceral to Englishmen as being the raw materials for resurgence. But only if a proper education can harness them.

“I believe in this country there is a passion and a love of the game – that is a strength in this country,” he said. “England should base the training on that.

“So perhaps more work needs to be done on the tactical or the technical work to try to improve that gap because the heart of the English players is, I would say, double or triple that of Spanish or French players. That is a good base to start with.”


Then this comment re Greg Dyke's plans last season:



Greg Dyke may have expressed "disappointment" at the scarcity of English players in Manchester City's title-winning side but the Premier League champions are emerging as one of the key backers of Dyke's much-derided plan to introduce B teams to English football.

Patrick Vieira, City's Head of Elite Development, believes such a move is crucial if English players are to one day regularly compare with Europe's best. Vieira sees B teams as key to City's development of young players – most of whom are British according to the Frenchman – far more than the other significant proposal made by Dyke's Football Association commission of broadening the loan system.

"You British guys are quite old-fashioned – history is really important but you have to change because the game is changing," said Vieira. "I think for the interests of football the objective is how you can help the England team to be better. So to give the manager a choice of selecting, not maybe 30 but 60 players, I think you have to look at the countries where they're producing a lot of players, Spain, Germany, and they have B teams.

"If they are doing it that means there's a reason. And in England they're not doing it because I think you guys are too much into your tradition, and I respect that. But I think things change and the times change and if you want to catch up with the other nations, you will have to create the B teams because that will have a massive influence on how to develop players."

Vieira amicably rejected Dyke's damning of the make-up of the City side that won the title last weekend.

"I just have to tell him that if he created B teams he will help us to develop more young talent," said Vieira, who will be part of ITV's World Cup coverage this summer. "When you look at the [Under-19] Champions League, the majority of the [City] players are English and from Manchester [Vieira said seven of the 11 that played in the quarter-final against Benfica were English]. I invite him to come to watch us play and he will see that we have talent, British talent, in our football club, and what we need is to give them the right challenges.

"We don't want to send our players on loan. We want to keep them with us, to give them the right education and the challenge that they need. When we send young players on loan, they are going to clubs where managers need to win games and the only focus is to win games. It's really difficult for them to develop because if they make one or two mistakes they are not going to play any more.

"In our football club making a mistake is part of the development. So we need the right challenges to help them develop. That's why I believe the B league will be a massive step up to improve the development of young players."


That has of course been deemed impossible, but it indicates why City are growing links with other clubs, to place players in the best kind of environment possible given the restrictions of the English system.