Help needed about rags not being in manchester

[rick1894citizen]

Having an argument with a mate about the 100 years united free, and need some facts to back it up as also read about Newton heath was originally classed as Oldham where they played so in there history they have only played in Manchester for 20 or so years.

Any help greatly appreciated as hate losing to this twat as he is pretty knowledgeable :(

[irblinx]

Are you sure about Newton Heath, it's a damned site closer to Manchester centre than it is to Oldham centre

[The Man In Blue]

basically mate, as i understand it - OT is outside the bounds of the city of manchester, this is an indisputable fact. the rags moved there in 1910, so a more apt name would be "Greater Manchester United F.C". even a rag like your mate should have little trouble understanding this basic premise, but we all know what the thick fuckers are like.

not sure about newton heath though - i think we need john1868 for this one.

[King Kev]

You will find plenty of info (including some from john68) [urlnp=http://www.facebook.com/groups.php?friends&o=60&hash=3b65abe622e184f7993017f82d14b07e#/group.php?gid=47586202922&ref=ts]HERE[/urlnp] mate.

[Beeks]

Newton Heath is in Manchester...in 1910 United moved to Old Trafford which is outside of Manchester(As in The City Of Manchester)...hence the 100 years

simples

[Manx Blue]

The swamp was opened on 19th February 1910... As per wiki.

Greater Manchester didn't come into being until 1973 or 74 from memory, an incorporates the city of Manchester and Salford, where they have been since 1910

[rick1894citizen]

Read somewhere that at one time wherever Newton heath played was classed as Oldham but also Gorton wasn't classed as Manchester for a while so won't mention that bit ;)

Think im in that group KK, forgot about checking there.

[john68]

Not followed the provuded link to something I must have posted earlier, but here it is chapter and verse.

1875...Two teams were formed in the Newton Heath Railway depot. 1...Those who worked on the railway itself and 2...those who worked in the engineers' shops. There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that either of these teams played football in any of its forms at that time. It IS KNOWN that they DID PLAY CRICKET.
There is NO EVIDENCE that either of these teams played at any sport outside the railway company and is most likely they played inter departmental games internally against other railway departments.
The 1st recorded game played by Newton Heath, under Association Football rules is recorded as being in 1880. Coincidentally, 7 days after the 1st recorded game played by St Mark's (West Gorton).
The area of Newton Heath was OUTSIDE the Manchester boundary. Newton Heath was annexed and became a part of Manchester in 1890.
Before 1890 and historically, Newton Heath was an independant area.

The rags 1st played within the Manchester boundary when their ground at Bank Street, Clayton was annexed into manchester in 1890. In 1910, they moved back outside the boundary when they moved to the swamp.

That do yer?....It should shut your rag mate up.

[john68]

As an addendum to the above....
The rags often use the argument that the swamp has an "M" postcode therfore it is in Manchester.

The postcode boundaries bear little resemblance to the actual geographical areas they cover. Theey are purely a means of delivering a more efficient mail service.
Tameside is a geographical area, it has its own unitary body that governs it. Within its boundaries are Denton (Manchester postcode), Hyde (Stockport postcode) ans Ashton (Oldham postcode)...Nobody would suggest that Hyde was in Stockport or Ashton was really in Oldham.
There are parts of Trafford that have Warrington postcodes.

So if yer rag mate springs that on you...tell him to fuck off.

[pepsi_dave]

Bloody Hell John... good work, you literally are like a Encyclopedia...... a very very VERY old encylopedia. ;-)

[john68]

Little to do with me mate.
Credit where credit is due...Most of the hard work researching this was done by others. Notably City historian Gary James, Steve Kay who ran the City stats site and who sadly died only a few ago and others who must have spent a lot of time delving through newspapers and archives.
My stuff came from researching the historic Manchester boundaries.

The major problem with city history is that the fire that destroyed the main stand at Hyde road, also destroyed most of City's early recorded history.

[rick1894citizen]

Nice one John will get him with that, here's what the fucker replied last;

You fail to address my main point in my two previous posts - for an obvious reason: it proves you wrong. I still don't mind debunking your points, each one in turn.

Why do I think it's Lancashire County Cricket Club and not Manchester City Cricket Club? Simple, it's "county" cricket. Manchester was part of the county of Lancashire. This goes back to the middle ages. If you don't believe me take a look at your Manchester City Councils coat of arms. View the Red Rose of Lancashire on both the horse and lion.

Manchester was a township, Stretford was a township, Newton was a township. They were all part of the Parish of Manchester. ... See More

Nowhere have I stated Old Trafford doesn't sit inside Trafford Councils boundaries. This is obvious. My point is Manchester City Council isn't the City of Manchester.


Bastard has done his research and caught me cold whilst i have been trying to find what Gary James had wrote about it, also supplied a old map with parish of manchester boundaries.

[john68]

The Lancashire County cricket club is quite clearly inside the Trafford boundary, it is actually opposite Trafford Council's Offices. Old Trafford Cricket ground is NOT, nor ever has been within the City of Manchester boundary.
Manchester was historically a part of the County of Lancashire.

The Manchester City Council governs all areas of the City of Manchester. There is no part of the City of manchester that is not governed by that council. There are no areas of Manchester outside the governance of the Manchester City Council. In that respect, the manchester City council and its area of governance are one and the same.

The Parish of Manchester is a church or ecclesiastical boundary, though I believe that the Parish of Newton Heath was independant of the parish of Manchester and may still be. I do know that the Newton Heath Parish did cover a huge area, including Clayton and Gorton. The Parish Church being All Saints.
Your friend could be confusing the word Parish with diocese.
Give me some time to check and confirm some facts regarding the Parish boundaries that I read some time ago.

[shawzy]

Aint it great to have John on your side lol.
Enjoyable readin fellas :-)

[john68]

KELLY'S MANCHESTER DIRESTORY OF 1838 clearly states.

"Newton Heath is a township and ecclesiastical parish, within the parish and parliamentary borough but NOT WITHIN THE MUNICIPAL BOUNDARY OF MANCHESTER"

His argument regarding parishes is utter nonsense. They are merely church boundaries. Prior to 1858, the Newton Heath parish actually came under the offices of the Diocese of Chester...would he like to argue that they were within that City's boundaries too?

The plain fact is that Newton Heath only came within the City of Manchester boundary in 1890...That is an historical FACT that CANNOT be disputed.
The area where the swamp is HAS NEVER EVER been within the Manchester boundary...a historical and geographical FACT that CANNOT be disputed.

Tell him to shove all his ramblings about the LCCC, parishes and/or any other nonsense up his rag arse, where they will blend with the rest of the shit.

Should he wish it, I will happily inform him of the actual Manchester boundary locations.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

I wouldn't bother. Such a silly argument against a silly club.

We are City. What more could you need?

[Alex Sapphire]

you're both wrong.

If your pal is relying on ancient history (which he seems to be) rather than the period where our two clubs existed (which John specialises in)...

we have both always been based in Salfordshire.

[OliverHardy]

Maybe we should have a '100 Years' banner at comms, depicting their time outside of Manchester

[Curlie]

Maybe we should have a '100 Years' banner at comms, depicting their time outside of Manchester

Billboard posters a la "Welcome to Manchester" would work for me.
Come on City, get in there!

[Fish111]

Maybe we should have a '100 Years' banner at comms, depicting their time outside of Manchester

And change the numbers with each passing year. That would piss them off no end when they visit Eastlands and the banner would never be changed unless they built a new ground inside Manchester whereas their banner depicting 34 years of hurt will be ''ripped down' as the great one has said.