FIFA's November 11th decision

[BlueinBosnia]

Why not just wear a black armband? Everyone knows what it will symbolize. I don't see anything good in the poppy symbol being (in my opinion) 'Disneyfied' in this way. In fact, I think it's quite demeaning to the symbol and everything that it originally stood for (discreet commemoration and fundraising for those affected by war). This poppy-or-bust attitude roused in the masses by the media is exactly the same mentality that was fostered in the young who were so easily led out to the fields in the First World War, and it's incredibly sad to see.

On the same day as England play Scotland, Wales play Serbia. Serbia's equivalent of the poppy is Natalie's Ramonda, a flower used to symbolize simultaneously the sacrifices of Serbia's war dead and the salvation of the Serbian Kingdom in and (partially) through the Great War. I fully expect that, were the poppy symbol to be allowed for England and Scotland, and therefore, de facto for Wales, then so should this.
That could potentially kick off all sorts of complaints from within the region.

Complaints about what?

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

This is just a knee-jerk reaction on my part and, ignoring all the arguments pro or con, as well as disregarding all the constraints which are applied to us, my gut reaction is:- 'Who the deuce do the corrupt and disgraced FIFA organisation think they are, to dictate to us what we do or don't do in our own country, with regard to a footballing match played between two teams from within this country.'

As far as FIFA are concerned, for me, they can take a running jump at themselves.

As I said, it's just my own knee-jerk reaction.

[BlueinBosnia]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.

Screw war veterans, there's a massive Wembley bill to pay - a symbolic gesture (which generates a lot of media noise) is much more cost efficient...

[BlueinBosnia]

This is just a knee-jerk reaction on my part and, ignoring all the arguments pro or con, as well as disregarding all the constraints which are applied to us, my gut reaction is:- 'Who the deuce do the corrupt and disgraced FIFA organisation think they are, to dictate to us what we do or don't do in our own country, with regard to a footballing match played between two teams from within this country.'

As far as FIFA are concerned, for me, they can take a running jump at themselves.

As I said, it's just my own knee-jerk reaction.

I'd agree if it was a friendly, but it's a match for a FIFA competition. Therefore, their rules do have some bearing, and if you don't abide by them (or receive an exemption) you should be penalized. If you were studying via distance learning, and broke the rules on an exam or assignment that you undertook in your own home, you wouldn't use that same train of thought to argue against being penalized, would you?

[Mikhail Chigorin]

This is just a knee-jerk reaction on my part and, ignoring all the arguments pro or con, as well as disregarding all the constraints which are applied to us, my gut reaction is:- 'Who the deuce do the corrupt and disgraced FIFA organisation think they are, to dictate to us what we do or don't do in our own country, with regard to a footballing match played between two teams from within this country.'

As far as FIFA are concerned, for me, they can take a running jump at themselves.

As I said, it's just my own knee-jerk reaction.

I'd agree if it was a friendly, but it's a match for a FIFA competition. Therefore, their rules do have some bearing, and if you don't abide by them (or receive an exemption) you should be penalized. If you were studying via distance learning, and broke the rules on an exam or assignment that you undertook in your own home, you wouldn't use that same train of thought to argue against being penalized, would you?

You're right of course BinB, but I did say I was only taking a knee-jerk approach and I did say I was ignoring all the valid arguments and constraints placed upon us.

It's just very hard to accept anything that FIFA decrees, these days, given that they are (still) a corrupt and discredited organisation and are completely lacking in any sort of moral compass in many areas.

Oh well, rant over and back to life in the sensible lane.

[Justified logic]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

You think the two world wars weren't politicised? Regular soldiers, sailors and airmen/women sign up to die? Professionals in the armed services, police,fire service etc who get killed in the line of duty don't count as much because they're volunteers? They get to choose which wars they get to fight in? The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

Yours is the sort of lazy and shallow thinking that leads to the despair with which the older generation view our contemporary society. Read what follows and learn.

Pompous ass. But then everyone is entitled to his opinion.

[Cocacolajojo]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.

Screw war veterans, there's a massive Wembley bill to pay - a symbolic gesture (which generates a lot of media noise) is much more cost efficient...

Isn't the poppy-thing in itself very symbolic? Wouldn't it be better to give money to the institutions working directly with veterans? Or am I missing something? I'm a foreigner, I know nothing.

[Dameerto]

People aren't really as altruistic as they could be - and there are lots of worthy causes vying for their attention so a bit of publicity once a year seems to work for them.

[BlueinBosnia]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.

Screw war veterans, there's a massive Wembley bill to pay - a symbolic gesture (which generates a lot of media noise) is much more cost efficient...

Isn't the poppy-thing in itself very symbolic? Wouldn't it be better to give money to the institutions working directly with veterans? Or am I missing something? I'm a foreigner, I know nothing.

Yes, that was my point - it seems to be more effective to rabble-rouse over whether or not England and Scotland are able to wear poppy symbols than to just make a financial contribution, explaining that it is in lieu of players' wearing of the poppy. Something I'd wager the FA would be loathe to do.

The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

I've just seen this now. Only one UK troop died in Kosovo as a result of (indirect) enemy actions, as far as I'm aware (killed by a landmine 2 years after the end of hostilities). Two died as a result of attempting to defuse cluster bombs that we'd dropped in the first place, one (a 17 year old, FFS) shot himself in the head in an accident, one (seemingly) committed suicide, and the rest were accidents.

[johnny crossan]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

You think the two world wars weren't politicised? Regular soldiers, sailors and airmen/women sign up to die? Professionals in the armed services, police,fire service etc who get killed in the line of duty don't count as much because they're volunteers? They get to choose which wars they get to fight in? The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

Yours is the sort of lazy and shallow thinking that leads to the despair with which the older generation view our contemporary society. Read what follows and learn.

Pompous ass. But then everyone is entitled to his opinion.

lol, even if, as in your case, it's probably copied word for word off some weirdo website for trolling amoebas. Your attempt to put together a coherent reply is quality though. I look forward to the profundities of the next effort at dialogue.

[johnny crossan]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.

Screw war veterans, there's a massive Wembley bill to pay - a symbolic gesture (which generates a lot of media noise) is much more cost efficient...

Isn't the poppy-thing in itself very symbolic? Wouldn't it be better to give money to the institutions working directly with veterans? Or am I missing something? I'm a foreigner, I know nothing.

Yes, that was my point - it seems to be more effective to rabble-rouse over whether or not England and Scotland are able to wear poppy symbols than to just make a financial contribution, explaining that it is in lieu of players' wearing of the poppy. Something I'd wager the FA would be loathe to do.

The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

I've just seen this now. Only one UK troop died in Kosovo as a result of (indirect) enemy actions, as far as I'm aware (killed by a landmine 2 years after the end of hostilities). Two died as a result of attempting to defuse cluster bombs that we'd dropped in the first place, one (a 17 year old, FFS) shot himself in the head in an accident, one (seemingly) committed suicide, and the rest were accidents.

OK, for Kosovo read Bosnia. Enough British dead there for you?

Why not just wear a black armband? Everyone knows what it will symbolize. I don't see anything good in the poppy symbol being (in my opinion) 'Disneyfied' in this way. In fact, I think it's quite demeaning to the symbol and everything that it originally stood for (discreet commemoration and fundraising for those affected by war). This poppy-or-bust attitude roused in the masses by the media is exactly the same mentality that was fostered in the young who were so easily led out to the fields in the First World War, and it's incredibly sad to see.

On the same day as England play Scotland, Wales play Serbia. Serbia's equivalent of the poppy is Natalie's Ramonda, a flower used to symbolize simultaneously the sacrifices of Serbia's war dead and the salvation of the Serbian Kingdom in and (partially) through the Great War. I fully expect that, were the poppy symbol to be allowed for England and Scotland, and therefore, de facto for Wales, then so should this.
That could potentially kick off all sorts of complaints from within the region.

Complaints about what?

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

[Justified logic]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

You think the two world wars weren't politicised? Regular soldiers, sailors and airmen/women sign up to die? Professionals in the armed services, police,fire service etc who get killed in the line of duty don't count as much because they're volunteers? They get to choose which wars they get to fight in? The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

Yours is the sort of lazy and shallow thinking that leads to the despair with which the older generation view our contemporary society. Read what follows and learn.

Pompous ass. But then everyone is entitled to his opinion.

lol, even if, as in your case, it's probably copied word for word off some weirdo website for trolling amoebas. Your attempt to put together a coherent reply is quality though. I look forward to the profundities of the next effort at dialogue.

Yet another misconstruction.

[johnny crossan]

Time was when the poppy symbolised - to me at least - the sacrifices made in WW1 and WW2, two wars in which volunteers and then conscripts fought to defend the country against an aggressor that was attacking and would have invaded us. The poppy seems to have changed now to include the volunteer war dead in all our own aggressive wars of invasion and occupation so to my mind it has become politicised which is why I no longer wear it, just having respect for 11am on 11th November - and not the fucking military parades on the nearest non-workday Sunday.

You think the two world wars weren't politicised? Regular soldiers, sailors and airmen/women sign up to die? Professionals in the armed services, police,fire service etc who get killed in the line of duty don't count as much because they're volunteers? They get to choose which wars they get to fight in? The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

Yours is the sort of lazy and shallow thinking that leads to the despair with which the older generation view our contemporary society. Read what follows and learn.

Pompous ass. But then everyone is entitled to his opinion.

lol, even if, as in your case, it's probably copied word for word off some weirdo website for trolling amoebas. Your attempt to put together a coherent reply is quality though. I look forward to the profundities of the next effort at dialogue.

Yet another misconstruction.

you didn't disappoint, another random and disjointed collation of words trying to look relevant to the argument.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

I can't help thinking that it would be better if instead of arguing about the symbolic wearing of the poppy for 90 mins, the FA donated the profit from the game to the poppy appeal.

Screw war veterans, there's a massive Wembley bill to pay - a symbolic gesture (which generates a lot of media noise) is much more cost efficient...

Isn't the poppy-thing in itself very symbolic? Wouldn't it be better to give money to the institutions working directly with veterans? Or am I missing something? I'm a foreigner, I know nothing.

Yes, that was my point - it seems to be more effective to rabble-rouse over whether or not England and Scotland are able to wear poppy symbols than to just make a financial contribution, explaining that it is in lieu of players' wearing of the poppy. Something I'd wager the FA would be loathe to do.

The armed service fatalities and injuries in Kosovo or the Falklands are more noble sacrifices than those in Iraq or Afghanistan because you happen to think them a worthier cause?

I've just seen this now. Only one UK troop died in Kosovo as a result of (indirect) enemy actions, as far as I'm aware (killed by a landmine 2 years after the end of hostilities). Two died as a result of attempting to defuse cluster bombs that we'd dropped in the first place, one (a 17 year old, FFS) shot himself in the head in an accident, one (seemingly) committed suicide, and the rest were accidents.

OK, for Kosovo read Bosnia. Enough British dead there for you?

Why not just wear a black armband? Everyone knows what it will symbolize. I don't see anything good in the poppy symbol being (in my opinion) 'Disneyfied' in this way. In fact, I think it's quite demeaning to the symbol and everything that it originally stood for (discreet commemoration and fundraising for those affected by war). This poppy-or-bust attitude roused in the masses by the media is exactly the same mentality that was fostered in the young who were so easily led out to the fields in the First World War, and it's incredibly sad to see.

On the same day as England play Scotland, Wales play Serbia. Serbia's equivalent of the poppy is Natalie's Ramonda, a flower used to symbolize simultaneously the sacrifices of Serbia's war dead and the salvation of the Serbian Kingdom in and (partially) through the Great War. I fully expect that, were the poppy symbol to be allowed for England and Scotland, and therefore, de facto for Wales, then so should this.
That could potentially kick off all sorts of complaints from within the region.

Complaints about what?

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

There's no one attacking anything here, just people giving their opinions. The only one attacking anything is you attacking people that don't agree with you.

[BlueinBosnia]

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

It was only adopted as a symbol 3 or 4 years ago, in a highly political move aimed to divert attention away from commemoration of the victory of the Partisans over Fascist forces in the Second World War. It came about 100% as the result of Serbia's present-day political scene, and at the same time serves exactly the same purpose as the poppy symbol in the UK, in commemorating war dead and creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.

[FA cup winners 2006]

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.

Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?

Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

[johnny crossan]

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

It was only adopted as a symbol 3 or 4 years ago, in a highly political move aimed to divert attention away from commemoration of the victory of the Partisans over Fascist forces in the Second World War. It came about 100% as the result of Serbia's present-day political scene, and at the same time serves exactly the same purpose as the poppy symbol in the UK, in commemorating war dead and creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.

So according to you the British Legion Red Poppy's purpose 'is creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.'

There seems no end to the to ulterior motives of a British charity that solely exists to honour the memory of those who gave their lives for their country and to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.

and no end to the poppycock on here either

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.
Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?
Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

The British armed forces members, veterans and their families from Londonderry are indeed supported by the British Legion, and there is also government support for for those suffering from the effects of war in Syria, Iraq and many other places whether we are directly involved in the conflicts or not.

[johnny crossan]

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

It was only adopted as a symbol 3 or 4 years ago, in a highly political move aimed to divert attention away from commemoration of the victory of the Partisans over Fascist forces in the Second World War. It came about 100% as the result of Serbia's present-day political scene, and at the same time serves exactly the same purpose as the poppy symbol in the UK, in commemorating war dead and creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.

So according to you the British Legion Red Poppy's purpose 'is creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.'

There seems no end to the to ulterior motives of a British charity that solely exists to honour the memory of those who gave their lives for their country and to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.

and no end to the poppycock on here either

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.
Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?
Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

The British armed forces members, veterans and their families from Londonderry are indeed supported by the British Legion, and there is also government support for those suffering from the effects of war in Syria, Iraq and many other places whether we are directly involved in the conflicts or not.

[FA cup winners 2006]

Anything - and I mean absolutely anything - Serbia does to commemorate its war dead will kick off some controversy in the Balkans, and often within Serbia itself, for being too nationalist/not nationalist enough, too inclusive/not inclusive enough - you name it, there'll be some group with their knickers in a twist about it. The fact that this flower symbol is related to the period of the Kingdom of Serbia (which was enlarged to become the Serbia-dominated Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes shortly after the Armistice, and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia) would exacerbate issues.

It's the same problem then and the same solution. These attempts at attacking a country's or a people's historical symbol venerating their fallen, on some political pretext or other, should be resisted. Remember Germany in the 30s where there was little opposition to graves with the Star of David being openly desecrated and daubed with swastikas. Betraying the memory those who sacrificed their lives in the service of your society and its values is never a good idea.

It was only adopted as a symbol 3 or 4 years ago, in a highly political move aimed to divert attention away from commemoration of the victory of the Partisans over Fascist forces in the Second World War. It came about 100% as the result of Serbia's present-day political scene, and at the same time serves exactly the same purpose as the poppy symbol in the UK, in commemorating war dead and creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.

So according to you the British Legion Red Poppy's purpose 'is creating a you're-either-with-us-or-against-us attitude among the populace.'

There seems no end to the to ulterior motives of a British charity that solely exists to honour the memory of those who gave their lives for their country and to provide financial, social and emotional support to members and veterans of the British Armed Forces, their families and dependants.

and no end to the poppycock on here either

If it is true that the poppy is a symbol of remembrance then i assume that the money raised is split out amongst the communities directly effected.
Does the royal british legion collect all the money from the sale of the poppies?
Do they donate money to communities like Derry, Syria and Iraq?

The British armed forces members, veterans and their families from Londonderry are indeed supported by the British Legion, and there is also government support for for those suffering from the effects of war in Syria, Iraq and many other places whether we are directly involved in the conflicts or not.

So not the innocent men women and children killed by british forces in Derry on bloody sunday!

If it was a maintained as a remembrance symbol for what it was originally intended (ie. Remenberance for the soliders lost or injured in world war 1) it would be acceptable world wide but when it is also used to remember soldiers who carried out illegal acts of murder on civillians then it is less palpable

[Original Dub]

I think every individual should have the choice to wear a poppy if they want.

The problem, from where I'm standing, seems to be that it is forced on everyone and every year is a big talking point.

Which if course is fucking ridiculous.

If those who wanted to wear it, wore it and those who didn't feel like it, didn't...

I reckon that might do the trick.