Second Half tactics

[Ted Hughes]

I know it may be better to enjoy the win at the moment but I just wanted to point out how we switched to a diamond 4-4-2 in the second half, with SWP behind the strikers, and how I thought it worked quite well until the last 15 minutes when we were clearly trying to hold onto the lead, plus we were also quite tired.

What do you think of it? I think Ireland could shine in that kind of formation, played in SWP's position, but then, assuming De Jong sits in front of the defence, the other two spots in central midfield will be u for grabs for Barry, Zabaleta, Vieira, and possibly SWP to start from there and maybe interchange positions with Stevie during the match, and make runs from the middle to the flank when he finds space to give us a bit of width.

Agree with your comments there mate, I mentioned him using the diamond when we were discussing Mathieu Flamini yesterday and for me it has many attractions...not least the fact that it allows us to use several players in roles which I think are most "natural" to them.

At the base of the diamond it is well suited to De Jong or Vieira.

Barry is an obvious choice for the left but Zabaleta could do a job as showed yesterday, as could Garrido or Sylvinho at a push

Right hand side, well, Zabba, Vieira, Flamini, Kompany, SWP, Bellamy even could play there.

But it's the tip of the diamond where the appeal really lies as we have an embarrassment of riches who could thrive there; Stephen Ireland however is its real appeal. I cannot wait to see him used in that role but Robinho could play there, as could Tevez, Bellamy, SWP....even Petrov if you ask me.

How we use our resources in situations like the last 15 mins so as to stifle the opposition and still remain dangerous is my main unanswered question but, as Grob says, it's nice to see that some tactical/formational fluidity looks to be being nurtured by Mancini. That is a big (positive) difference in him vs MH thus far.

I think it's a very interesting system which could be employed using all the players mentioned. I thought many of the tactics though were one step away from disasterous last night. There was a total misreading of the situation from the kick off & City's negativity took the sting out of our own crowd rather than the opposition killing it. Reminded me of Pearce's last derby. We had a period in the middle of the game though, when we pushed up rather than sitting back & we scored & threatened briefly to get a 3rd. I think we used the diamond for at least part of that period.

Hopefully the sitting back tactics employed for half of the game were because we have so many players carrying injuries, coming back etc. Tevez was clearly limping slightly when he came off & SWP was tiring. In removing most of our attacking threat though we gave Baconface chance to chuck on every forward he's got without risk & almost threw away the tie. Benjani was more fucked than Giggs. No more of him please. Ireland would've been much more use than him or Sylvinho leaving Bellamy up front.

Whatever tactical formation we employ at OT, if we don't press the ball we'll get hammered. If we let them have the ball round our box, Howard Webb will give them 25 free kicks for a start. Hopefully with more players match fit we'll be more positive.

[CityFanFromRome]

I thought in the latter part of the second half we were quite negative which allowed the rags to push on

We sat back and let them come at us...we were defending far too deep...don't know if this is an italian thing but I don't like it

I think it was more due to some players being tired than to a tactical choice, however Mancini spotted that we didn't have the legs to keep attacking and decided to follow the team's inclination to sit back trying to shore things up with the subs, Benjani was meant to give the back line some breath holding the ball up but he failed in that, Onuoha was meant to bring more experience to the back line and he did well there also clearing on the line, and Sylvinho for SWP was because SWP was knackered, while Sylvinho could do a job in the middle of the park to help stifle their attacks.

All in all, not a pretty sight but if you don't have the energy to keep attacking better to sit back with some fresh legs and most of all with players used to defend than with tired attacking players.

[Ted Hughes]

I thought in the latter part of the second half we were quite negative which allowed the rags to push on

We sat back and let them come at us...we were defending far too deep...don't know if this is an italian thing but I don't like it

I think it was more due to some players being tired than to a tactical choice, however Mancini spotted that we didn't have the legs to keep attacking and decided to follow the team's inclination to sit back trying to shore things up with the subs, Benjani was meant to give the back line some breath holding the ball up but he failed in that, Onuoha was meant to bring more experience to the back line and he did well there also clearing on the line, and Sylvinho for SWP was because SWP was knackered, while Sylvinho could do a job in the middle of the park to help stifle their attacks.

All in all, not a pretty sight but if you don't have the energy to keep attacking better to sit back with some fresh legs and most of all with players used to defend than with tired attacking players.

If you don't have an outlet though & don't play football, you end up having to work twice as hard. Giggs was still running around like an 18 year old because he'd not had to do any running to retrieve the ball as we'd been in our own half for a lot of the match. If we'd had a threat at the end, the rags would either have to be more cautious or we would've had a chance to score again. We opted to be scared of them rather than try to win the tie.

[Guy Debord]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments United posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

[Alex Sapphire]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

Big favourites, Ted?

[Wonderwall]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

Big favourites, Ted?

With our squad, in a ONE OFF GAME if a rag had a bet with me and said I could have the draw, I would snatch his hand off.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

Big favourites, Ted?

They play chump's league games year in year out against better sides than us & turn them over from this position. I'd make them big favourites against Barca or Real in the same position. It will need them to have an off day or us to turn in an even better performance than Sven's Munich day team, to get to Wembley. We can do it though & I think we will, especially hitting them on the break but our biggest chance to kill it was last night.

[Mr Miyagi]

We had a chat about the "diamond" the other day, didn't we? Maybe Mancini is reading the forums.

I think we have the personnel to play it. Nothing to add to what has already been said.

My main concern is the amount of space we give to opposition players on the edge of the box. Considering we had a defensive midfield line of Zabba, De Jong, and Barry we were poor at protecting the back four. In fact this was the case at Everton as well. Sometimes, instead of a row of mids and a row of defenders, we seem to have one line of 8 across the penalty area. I got fed up with Rooney being allowed to run unchallenged just outside the penalty box. Also De Jong and Zabba can go chasing the ball around the pitch too much. They lose their positioning. This creates a gap. Once again the back four get put under pressure. The person at the back of the diamond needs to stick to the job. We can't allow their players to pick their pass on the edge of the box without a challenge.

[Ted Hughes]

We had a chat about the "diamond" the other day, didn't we? Maybe Mancini is reading the forums.

I think we have the personnel to play it. Nothing to add to what has already been said.

My main concern is the amount of space we give to opposition players on the edge of the box. Considering we had a defensive midfield line of Zabba, De Jong, and Barry we were poor at protecting the back four. In fact this was the case at Everton as well. Sometimes, instead of a row of mids and a row of defenders, we seem to have one line of 8 across the penalty area. I got fed up with Rooney being allowed to run unchallenged just outside the penalty box. Also De Jong and Zabba can go chasing the ball around the pitch too much. They lose their positioning. This creates a gap. Once again the back four get put under pressure. The person at the back of the diamond needs to stick to the job. We can't allow their players to pick their pass on the edge of the box without a challenge.

Think that's the exact reason why he's signed Vieira. If fit he could make a big difference there. Teams can't press around our box if we have the ball though. We need to start playing football again not just playing tactics.

[Wonderwall]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

And you were calling ME pathetic the other day.

[Wonderwall]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

And you were calling ME pathetic the other day.

you probably were, but you have lost me?

[MaineRoadMemories]

WW you also forgot to mention that Giggs (the bastard) can find the header or foot of any player given enough time even if they are as small as Rooney up against 3 defenders.

In the return leg we need to put more pressure on their wingers to make them rush into a decision.

[Ted Hughes]

WW you also forgot to mention that Giggs (the bastard) can find the header or foot of any player given enough time even if they are as small as Rooney up against 3 defenders.

In the return leg we need to put more pressure on their wingers to make them rush into a decision.

Agree. If you don't put pressure on the ball v top PL teams they'll either beat you or occasionally they'll have a bad day & miss chances but they'll certainly create them.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

And you were calling ME pathetic the other day.

you probably were, but you have lost me?

In what way were we "lucky"? And I don't understand the persistence to find flaws on what was brilliant night. We weren't lucky.

[Wonderwall]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

And you were calling ME pathetic the other day.

you probably were, but you have lost me?

In what way were we "lucky"? And I don't understand the persistence to find flaws on what was brilliant night. We weren't lucky.

Jesus man, get a grip. I am not having a dig at anyone stop reading negativity into anything. I LIKE MANCINI FFS. Get of your soapbox and stop thinking that everyone is out to have a go. READ WHAT I PUT about the one touch movement and that they picked a way through on more than one occasion. They didnt score from it this time, but we might not be so fortunate next time FFS.

[BobKowalski]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

Whilst getting to (and winning)the final is the ultimate objective I think you will find that winning the first leg of a two legged semi final is the best way to go about achieving this objective - unless there is a school of thought I am unfamiliar with that states getting tonked in the first leg is actually the way to go.

[Dunne's Half-Time Pint]

Mancini likes to play very narrow to squuze the game and make it very tight and difficult for the opposition. He plays the width of the penalty area when the opposition has the ball and then allows us to spread wide on the attack. It is very much a "come and have a go if you think your good enough" attitude. We have Komps, richards, boyata at the back for the aerial bombardment, which should suffice against any swung in cross against the rags who are not a big team themselves.

Its not easy to pick and weave through a very congested space, quick one touch football is needed and they managed it on a couple of occasions. I hope Mancini studies that as we might not be as lucky next time.

And you were calling ME pathetic the other day.

you probably were, but you have lost me?

In what way were we "lucky"? And I don't understand the persistence to find flaws on what was brilliant night. We weren't lucky.

Jesus man, get a grip. I am not having a dig at anyone stop reading negativity into anything. I LIKE MANCINI FFS. Get of your soapbox and stop thinking that everyone is out to have a go. READ WHAT I PUT about the one touch movement and that they picked a way through on more than one occasion. They didnt score from it this time, but we might not be so fortunate next time FFS.

top blues don't make tactical observations - that's tantamount to criticising the manager. top blues don't criticise the manager.

[Ted Hughes]

I'm surprised by the negativity in this thread. Some seem to have fallen into the Lawrenson school of misunderstanding tactics.

The aim is to win the game, Mancini set up his team to win the game. Pushing up to pressure the full-backs would have exposed us to threats and as under Hughes we might have conceded again. Mancini's team's are happy to sit deep and strike on the counter and to be patient. Until their desperate final moments U***d posed little goal threat yesterday and for a team that includes Rooney that's as impressive as it is vital.

Mancini got it right even though he's barely got to grips with the squad yet.

Wrong. The aim is to get to the cup final. Utd are now big favourites to do that.

Whilst getting to (and winning)the final is the ultimate objective I think you will find that winning the first leg of a two legged semi final is the best way to go about achieving this objective - unless there is a school of thought I am unfamiliar with that states getting tonked in the first leg is actually the way to go.

Knob.