Stability

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Re: Stability

Postby Rag_hater » Mon May 10, 2010 1:21 pm

Dubciteh wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


how about robinho for manager?perfect solution for you right?

Sounds perfect.
I'd also give him 10 years to buy his own team and a billion sterling
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Re: Stability

Postby BobKowalski » Mon May 10, 2010 1:25 pm

Rag_hater wrote:
BobKowalski wrote:Stability is one component of success. Having the right men in the right positions is another. The Chelsea team and squad has been stable even if the managerial position has not - although in Ancelotti I suspect that this instability is over. City have not been stable in terms of either team/squad or managerial position partly because our squad has not been good enough so there has been a rapid injection of players irrespective of manager along with managerial instability meaning that players have been bought and discarded dependant upon who the manager is.

I expect that there will be further squad restructing in the summer although not on the previous scale with an emphasis on quality not quantity. Mancini I recall reading does not want to fill the squad with 'more of the same'. Also Mancini unlike Hughes is happy to work within the club system where players are indentified by Marwood and co that can bring real value ie Johnson.

Irrespective of whatever people think of Mancini, 'too negative, too boring' or whatever, the one thing that he does bring which is valued by the club is not only his willingness to work with the club in taking it forward (ie he does not say its 'my way or no way') but his ability to organise the team and make things more solid. From solidity and stability the club and the team can grow and progress.

Ultimately no one knows whether Mancini can take City to winning the PL and more. But at the very least he will bring City to the point where we can challenge for the PL and qualify for the CL. It may be that we need someone else to close the deal but for the next season or two we do need some continuity. We may froth and moan over this or that performance or result but we also need to have some degree of long term prespective otherwise we will be forever ripping things up and starting again which will ultimately get us nowhere.

I disagree that stability is one of the components of success.As you say Chelski have been through plenty of turmoil but still managed to compete.So this says to me that quality is more important.


They competed because the core of the team still had the 'Mourinho' imprint on their DNA. It took Ancelotti to take them back to winning the big prize though and its interesting to see the effect that he has had on the team. One is the certainty throughout the club that Ancelotti has the confidence of Abramovich. Even getting turned over by Inter has not shaken that confidence and the calmness that Ancelotti himself brings to the club is I think signifcant as you get the sense that everyone is pulling in the same direction much as they were in Mourinho's first two years. And Chelsea won with some style which is also important to Abramovich.

I am not saying that stability is more important than quality. Unless you have quality both on and off the pitch you won't win anything no matter how stable you are but a combination of the two is the best breeding ground for success. The fact that Mancini missed out on 4th spot is failure but equally Mourinho was hired by Inter to win the CL yet in his first season they surrended tamely to taggarts mob. Should Inter have sacked Jose for failing to do what he was hired to do? Or should Inter give him one more season, pump more money into the team and give Jose another shot? Well they took the latter option and have the reward of a CL final.

Its not as simple as saying 'we wanted a top 4 spot, you didn't get it so on your bike sunshine'. Mancini was clearly on some form of probation this season and to keep his job he had to convince the owners he could take the team forward. The owners have clearly seen enough to convince them Mancini can take us forward so are letting him continue. Getting 4th would have been great but I did say about a month or so ago that I didn't think 4th spot was make or break for Mancini anymore. I think I was accused of changing the rules for saying that but I do think it was pretty clear it was going Mancini's way.
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Re: Stability

Postby Kiss_The_Goat » Mon May 10, 2010 1:49 pm

Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


But Chelsea have had stability both on the pitch and off it. The core of the playing staff has barely changed in over 6 years. The back room staff has remained pretty much unchanged throughout the managerial changes, to the point that even the assistant manager has remained the same, with Ray Wilkins being the assistant to the last 3 managers and Clarke to the 2 before. That stability is vital to their team and the spirit and focus of the players. Had each managerial change resulted in a complete change of back room staff and football philosophy as the Hughes to Mancini change was, then Chelsea wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as they have been after these changes imo and there would have been a lot more players moving on.
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Re: Stability

Postby Rag_hater » Mon May 10, 2010 1:55 pm

BobKowalski wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:
BobKowalski wrote:Stability is one component of success. Having the right men in the right positions is another. The Chelsea team and squad has been stable even if the managerial position has not - although in Ancelotti I suspect that this instability is over. City have not been stable in terms of either team/squad or managerial position partly because our squad has not been good enough so there has been a rapid injection of players irrespective of manager along with managerial instability meaning that players have been bought and discarded dependant upon who the manager is.

I expect that there will be further squad restructing in the summer although not on the previous scale with an emphasis on quality not quantity. Mancini I recall reading does not want to fill the squad with 'more of the same'. Also Mancini unlike Hughes is happy to work within the club system where players are indentified by Marwood and co that can bring real value ie Johnson.

Irrespective of whatever people think of Mancini, 'too negative, too boring' or whatever, the one thing that he does bring which is valued by the club is not only his willingness to work with the club in taking it forward (ie he does not say its 'my way or no way') but his ability to organise the team and make things more solid. From solidity and stability the club and the team can grow and progress.

Ultimately no one knows whether Mancini can take City to winning the PL and more. But at the very least he will bring City to the point where we can challenge for the PL and qualify for the CL. It may be that we need someone else to close the deal but for the next season or two we do need some continuity. We may froth and moan over this or that performance or result but we also need to have some degree of long term prespective otherwise we will be forever ripping things up and starting again which will ultimately get us nowhere.

I disagree that stability is one of the components of success.As you say Chelski have been through plenty of turmoil but still managed to compete.So this says to me that quality is more important.


They competed because the core of the team still had the 'Mourinho' imprint on their DNA. It took Ancelotti to take them back to winning the big prize though and its interesting to see the effect that he has had on the team. One is the certainty throughout the club that Ancelotti has the confidence of Abramovich. Even getting turned over by Inter has not shaken that confidence and the calmness that Ancelotti himself brings to the club is I think signifcant as you get the sense that everyone is pulling in the same direction much as they were in Mourinho's first two years. And Chelsea won with some style which is also important to Abramovich.

I am not saying that stability is more important than quality. Unless you have quality both on and off the pitch you won't win anything no matter how stable you are but a combination of the two is the best breeding ground for success. The fact that Mancini missed out on 4th spot is failure but equally Mourinho was hired by Inter to win the CL yet in his first season they surrended tamely to taggarts mob. Should Inter have sacked Jose for failing to do what he was hired to do? Or should Inter give him one more season, pump more money into the team and give Jose another shot? Well they took the latter option and have the reward of a CL final.

Its not as simple as saying 'we wanted a top 4 spot, you didn't get it so on your bike sunshine'. Mancini was clearly on some form of probation this season and to keep his job he had to convince the owners he could take the team forward. The owners have clearly seen enough to convince them Mancini can take us forward so are letting him continue. Getting 4th would have been great but I did say about a month or so ago that I didn't think 4th spot was make or break for Mancini anymore. I think I was accused of changing the rules for saying that but I do think it was pretty clear it was going Mancini's way.



I do feel that Mancini is a step up from Hughes however I feel that he is not of sufficient quality to get us any further than what we have achieved this season.I feel we will fall in the same trap as Arse,Villa,Toffees etc... Unless we get over this concept that we need stability to build a dynasty, we will spend the next few years floundering around 5th and 6th.There is no harm in chopping & changing managers if it leads to us getting the best .Mancini simply isn't good enough from what I have seen.I make my mind up quickly and maybe thats not a good way to look at it but nontheless it is the way I am.
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Re: Stability

Postby BobKowalski » Mon May 10, 2010 2:07 pm

Rag_hater wrote:
BobKowalski wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:
BobKowalski wrote:Stability is one component of success. Having the right men in the right positions is another. The Chelsea team and squad has been stable even if the managerial position has not - although in Ancelotti I suspect that this instability is over. City have not been stable in terms of either team/squad or managerial position partly because our squad has not been good enough so there has been a rapid injection of players irrespective of manager along with managerial instability meaning that players have been bought and discarded dependant upon who the manager is.

I expect that there will be further squad restructing in the summer although not on the previous scale with an emphasis on quality not quantity. Mancini I recall reading does not want to fill the squad with 'more of the same'. Also Mancini unlike Hughes is happy to work within the club system where players are indentified by Marwood and co that can bring real value ie Johnson.

Irrespective of whatever people think of Mancini, 'too negative, too boring' or whatever, the one thing that he does bring which is valued by the club is not only his willingness to work with the club in taking it forward (ie he does not say its 'my way or no way') but his ability to organise the team and make things more solid. From solidity and stability the club and the team can grow and progress.

Ultimately no one knows whether Mancini can take City to winning the PL and more. But at the very least he will bring City to the point where we can challenge for the PL and qualify for the CL. It may be that we need someone else to close the deal but for the next season or two we do need some continuity. We may froth and moan over this or that performance or result but we also need to have some degree of long term prespective otherwise we will be forever ripping things up and starting again which will ultimately get us nowhere.

I disagree that stability is one of the components of success.As you say Chelski have been through plenty of turmoil but still managed to compete.So this says to me that quality is more important.


They competed because the core of the team still had the 'Mourinho' imprint on their DNA. It took Ancelotti to take them back to winning the big prize though and its interesting to see the effect that he has had on the team. One is the certainty throughout the club that Ancelotti has the confidence of Abramovich. Even getting turned over by Inter has not shaken that confidence and the calmness that Ancelotti himself brings to the club is I think signifcant as you get the sense that everyone is pulling in the same direction much as they were in Mourinho's first two years. And Chelsea won with some style which is also important to Abramovich.

I am not saying that stability is more important than quality. Unless you have quality both on and off the pitch you won't win anything no matter how stable you are but a combination of the two is the best breeding ground for success. The fact that Mancini missed out on 4th spot is failure but equally Mourinho was hired by Inter to win the CL yet in his first season they surrended tamely to taggarts mob. Should Inter have sacked Jose for failing to do what he was hired to do? Or should Inter give him one more season, pump more money into the team and give Jose another shot? Well they took the latter option and have the reward of a CL final.

Its not as simple as saying 'we wanted a top 4 spot, you didn't get it so on your bike sunshine'. Mancini was clearly on some form of probation this season and to keep his job he had to convince the owners he could take the team forward. The owners have clearly seen enough to convince them Mancini can take us forward so are letting him continue. Getting 4th would have been great but I did say about a month or so ago that I didn't think 4th spot was make or break for Mancini anymore. I think I was accused of changing the rules for saying that but I do think it was pretty clear it was going Mancini's way.



I do feel that Mancini is a step up from Hughes however I feel that he is not of sufficient quality to get us any further than what we have achieved this season.I feel we will fall in the same trap as Arse,Villa,Toffees etc... Unless we get over this concept that we need stability to build a dynasty, we will spend the next few years floundering around 5th and 6th.There is no harm in chopping & changing managers if it leads to us getting the best .Mancini simply isn't good enough from what I have seen.I make my mind up quickly and maybe thats not a good way to look at it but nontheless it is the way I am.


Well look at it this way. A combination of Hughes and Mancini got us to 5th. Mancini gets us to 2nd or 3rd with a cup or two along the way (hopefully) and someone else gets us to top spot in a natural progression. Personally I am not that fussed about dynasties or having a manager for years ala taggart or Wenger. A couple of years with Mancini taking us forward is fine with me and if it needs someone else to close the deal then so be it.
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Re: Stability

Postby Colin the King » Mon May 10, 2010 2:20 pm

Stability vs. Lack of stability:

Chelsea's strongest XI

Cech- 257 appearances

Bosingwa- 58 appearances
Terry- 452 appearances
Carvalho- 210 appearances
Cole- 160 appearances

Ballack- 165 appearances
Essien- 179 appearances
Lampard- 473 appearances
Malouda- 129 appearances

Anelka- 121 appearances
Drogba- 259 appearances

COMBINED TOTAL- 2463 appearances


City's strongest XI:

Given- 60 appearances

Zabaleta- 81 appearances
Kompany- 71 appearances
Lescott- 25 appearances
Bridge- 39 appearances

Johnson- 18 appearances
Barry- 44 appearances
de Jong- 63 appearances
Bellamy- 50 appearances

Adebayor- 33 appearances
Tevez- 46 appearances

COMBINED TOTAL- 512 appearances


There's a world of difference there. Our (arguably) strongest XI doesn't have a single player with over 100 appearances- Chelsea have only one player who has played less than that amount. It's easy to suggest that they've been successful without stability, but management is only one part of that. Our downfall hasn't been sacking managers alone, but rebuilding the whole squad and infrastructure, starting from scratch every few months and having to start the process again and again. If/when those players accumulate 200-300 appearances in a City shirt, I guarantee there'll be a couple of medals to go with them.
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Re: Stability

Postby Im_Spartacus » Mon May 10, 2010 2:38 pm

CTK, I see where you are coming from, but what was the number of appearances of the Chelsea side which first won the league?

Its a total myth that success is unattainable when you have a new side, peddled by sub standard managers as an excuse for their own shortcomings
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Re: Stability

Postby john@staustell » Mon May 10, 2010 2:40 pm

johnpb78 wrote:CTK, I see where you are coming from, but what was the number of appearances of the Chelsea side which first won the league?

Its a total myth that success is unattainable when you have a new side, peddled by sub standard managers as an excuse for their own shortcomings


Agreed John. We are in the mix for next season for sure.
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Re: Stability

Postby Im_Spartacus » Mon May 10, 2010 2:44 pm

john@staustell wrote:
johnpb78 wrote:CTK, I see where you are coming from, but what was the number of appearances of the Chelsea side which first won the league?

Its a total myth that success is unattainable when you have a new side, peddled by sub standard managers as an excuse for their own shortcomings


Agreed John. We are in the mix for next season for sure.


Absolutely, we have a manager whom, despite me not being his biggest fan, I can see what he is trying to do - a couple of new faces to shore up the midfield and I think we are half way there. If he brings in more, great, but I dont think we are a million miles away now.

Great Players + Good Managers = Trophies

Stability doesnt come into it
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Re: Stability

Postby Rag_hater » Mon May 10, 2010 3:03 pm

Kiss_The_Goat wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


But Chelsea have had stability both on the pitch and off it. The core of the playing staff has barely changed in over 6 years. The back room staff has remained pretty much unchanged throughout the managerial changes, to the point that even the assistant manager has remained the same, with Ray Wilkins being the assistant to the last 3 managers and Clarke to the 2 before. That stability is vital to their team and the spirit and focus of the players. Had each managerial change resulted in a complete change of back room staff and football philosophy as the Hughes to Mancini change was, then Chelsea wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as they have been after these changes imo and there would have been a lot more players moving on.


I see your point but it makes me think that if Chelski have been this stable for a number of years then why have they not been sweeping all sides away as they have this year(except us).Surely the stabilty they have enjoyed would have led to them being champ all the time but as it has not does the explanation not lie in the fact that stability has not much creedance on results compared to quality.
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Re: Stability

Postby john@staustell » Mon May 10, 2010 3:12 pm

Rag_hater wrote:
Kiss_The_Goat wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


But Chelsea have had stability both on the pitch and off it. The core of the playing staff has barely changed in over 6 years. The back room staff has remained pretty much unchanged throughout the managerial changes, to the point that even the assistant manager has remained the same, with Ray Wilkins being the assistant to the last 3 managers and Clarke to the 2 before. That stability is vital to their team and the spirit and focus of the players. Had each managerial change resulted in a complete change of back room staff and football philosophy as the Hughes to Mancini change was, then Chelsea wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as they have been after these changes imo and there would have been a lot more players moving on.


I see your point but it makes me think that if Chelski have been this stable for a number of years then why have they not been sweeping all sides away as they have this year(except us).Surely the stabilty they have enjoyed would have led to them being champ all the time but as it has not does the explanation not lie in the fact that stability has not much creedance on results compared to quality.


Quite right RH. In fact as their 'stability' increased over the years Scum started winning titles again. And then there's the CL!
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Re: Stability

Postby Slim » Mon May 10, 2010 3:18 pm

john@staustell wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:
Kiss_The_Goat wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


But Chelsea have had stability both on the pitch and off it. The core of the playing staff has barely changed in over 6 years. The back room staff has remained pretty much unchanged throughout the managerial changes, to the point that even the assistant manager has remained the same, with Ray Wilkins being the assistant to the last 3 managers and Clarke to the 2 before. That stability is vital to their team and the spirit and focus of the players. Had each managerial change resulted in a complete change of back room staff and football philosophy as the Hughes to Mancini change was, then Chelsea wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as they have been after these changes imo and there would have been a lot more players moving on.


I see your point but it makes me think that if Chelski have been this stable for a number of years then why have they not been sweeping all sides away as they have this year(except us).Surely the stabilty they have enjoyed would have led to them being champ all the time but as it has not does the explanation not lie in the fact that stability has not much creedance on results compared to quality.


Quite right RH. In fact as their 'stability' increased over the years Scum started winning titles again. And then there's the CL!


Won two titles, struggled, replaced manager, replaced manager, replaced manager, replaced manager.

Gave a manager a full season, won third title.

Seems stability might be worth a shot.
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Re: Stability

Postby Im_Spartacus » Mon May 10, 2010 3:43 pm

Slim wrote:
john@staustell wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:
Kiss_The_Goat wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I do not think it is necessary for a team to be successful.
As Chelski have just proved by Ancoletti winning the prem in his first season.They havent been managerially very stable for the past few years but still keep competing.
I personally think that when something isnt working that change is the way forward.
Benitez had most of his success when he inherited the dippers
Arse have been stable for ages and its doing fuckall for them the only ones it has benefitted is them.
Villa and the toffees are stable and the achieve more or less the same every year.
I fear we will fall in the same trap of trying to be stable and not achieving the main prize in the pursuit of stabilty when we should be aiming to get the best.


But Chelsea have had stability both on the pitch and off it. The core of the playing staff has barely changed in over 6 years. The back room staff has remained pretty much unchanged throughout the managerial changes, to the point that even the assistant manager has remained the same, with Ray Wilkins being the assistant to the last 3 managers and Clarke to the 2 before. That stability is vital to their team and the spirit and focus of the players. Had each managerial change resulted in a complete change of back room staff and football philosophy as the Hughes to Mancini change was, then Chelsea wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful as they have been after these changes imo and there would have been a lot more players moving on.


I see your point but it makes me think that if Chelski have been this stable for a number of years then why have they not been sweeping all sides away as they have this year(except us).Surely the stabilty they have enjoyed would have led to them being champ all the time but as it has not does the explanation not lie in the fact that stability has not much creedance on results compared to quality.


Quite right RH. In fact as their 'stability' increased over the years Scum started winning titles again. And then there's the CL!


Won two titles, struggled, replaced manager, replaced manager, replaced manager, replaced manager.

Gave a manager a full season, won third title.

Seems stability might be worth a shot.


The alternative spin is that they had a VERY good manager for 4 years, brought a great footballing side together in a period of great boardroom instability, got sacked because someone better was available, who came in and won league twice with previous manager's team.

Then owner was a nob, wanted "Barca" football, manager fucks off, owner reaps what he sews and miss out on league for 3 years
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Re: Stability

Postby Kladze » Mon May 10, 2010 3:55 pm

Building a team is, in many ways, comparable to building a corporate image.

First of all the talent has to be assembled - this may take a little while - and 'encouraged' to work as one unit. The aim, eventually, is to have everybody buying into an ethos - a 'team ethos' if you will. But such an ethos is only achievable if a strong degree of continuity is present, otherwise individuality and factionalism will break out. Continuity is obviously best achieved if it starts (but doesn't end) with the management.
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