clawbaggio wrote:Do you think our poor away form has coincided with the return of Nige? Gone back to playing how we did last season - overpassing and too slow.
Nasri also slows it down too much, he wants too many touches of the ball, doesn't move it on quickly enough.
And what's wrong with getting some crosses into the box (other than we would then need to get some players in the box as well). Its worked for Chelski tonight.
Nigels Tackle wrote:
i don't buy this. yes, we pass the ball around a lot but we average c.20 attempts on goal in every game home and away. we had 18 attempts on sunday, 13 of them on target. we are wasteful... i started a tongue in cheek thread entitled 'livid' after the blackburn game a few weeks back in response to the missed opportunities in that match. we should have scored 8 that night and then a similar number vs bolton. ok, so keepers making great saves comes into it but home many times have we seen our boys blast the ball high over the bar or hit it straight at the keeper from close range in recent weeks??
to back up my argument....
everton away 17 attempts on goal 11 on target
west brom away 18 and 9
sunderland 25 and 11
swansea 18 and 13
that's 78 attempts on goal 44 of which were on target yielding no fucking goals. that's embarrassing
edit 2:
stats from 3 of the rags luckiest wins this season
spurs 6 attempts, 5 on target - 3 goals
norwich 11 attempts, 9 on target - 2 goals
everton 7 attempts, 6 on target - 1 goal
in 3 games that they won, they had fewer attempts on goal than we did in our game vs sunderland. the reason that they are ahead of us is because they take their chances. we don't.
Im_Spartacus wrote:you have inadvertantly hit the nail right on the head with your post. Its not about the number of chances we get, its about the type of chance it is. You said "how many times have we hit it over the bar or smashed it straight at the keeper"
This is the very crux of the matter, and i would argue that itis not wasteful, it is that the chances we create are usually from threading the ball through the middle, by which time the attacking player turns to face goal and has an onrushing keeper to deal with. The ball invariably ends up over the bar or hitting the keeper by simple laws of averages.
Compare that to many of the goals you see the rags score, sweeping move, ball goes out wide, crossed in, rooney or someone else is in acres of space with a free header/shot and an eternity till it reaches him to decide what to do with it. They also score goals from outside the area with regularity.
Goals from outside the area come from not having a sea of defenders in front of you. However we press so high up the pitch, there is always going to be is sea, and its going to be rare that a player either gets the space, and does not have bodies in the way.
We have to try to play a little deeper, to give the forwards space to run onto passes, rather than recieve a pass and expect them to do miracles with the ball at their feet.
Ted Hughes wrote:everton away 17 attempts on goal 11 on target
west brom away 18 and 9
sunderland 25 and 11
swansea 18 and 13
Those stats may look like a lot of chances but how many were actually genuine chances ? I'll answer that myself; hardly any, in all 4 games put together, very very few genuine chances. Think back, how many times v Swansea did you think " fuck we should have scored there " ? Any at all ? Thse stats say 18 & 13 yet we can't remember one bad miss.
V Everton Nasri hit the bar, anything else, any glaring misses ? V Sunderland, Dzeko had a couple of really good snap shots but how many times did we actually think we missed a sitter ? West Brom ? Same.
Nope, those stats are misleading, we have created hardly any genuine goalscoring opportunities in any of those games.
Ted Hughes wrote:I think it's dead simple. We put 6 past the rags. That's our problem.
There was a QPR supporter on the radio a week or so ago, lamenting how poor and half hearted they had been in many games, he mentioned v the rags, then he said "the only game where we've really turned up was against Man City ". An Everton fan said something similar a short while ago, lamenting their pathetic effort levels v rags.
Teams have shut up shop against us in a way rarely seen in the Premier League because there has rarely been a team who can play like us. If we play shit, as in the 1st half v Swansea, sure they will come out & have a go, but once we start to pass the ball, they drop back into a wall in front of the box. Even Chelsea did that v us yet played wide open like Brian Horton's City v the rags (twice).
The way around it was shown v Blackburn at home. Width & tempo. We had AJ hugging the right, & Silva + Aguero taking turns to get chalk on their boots on the left. Our midfield fired the ball quickly from one side to the other. We were different that day to any other game this season. No team in the league could live with that. Our pass & move game, plus width, played at tempo is unstoppable. If we had done that at Swansea, we would have throttled them, but we didn't, we strolled around the middle.
Chuck on wide players & go for it at tempo, fire the ball into the box & if neccessary, play Aguero, Balotelli, Dzeko & Tevez at the same time for the second half & tell all of them to cross, shoot & keep doing it over & over & over until it goes in.
Ted Hughes wrote:I think it's dead simple. We put 6 past the rags. That's our problem.
There was a QPR supporter on the radio a week or so ago, lamenting how poor and half hearted they had been in many games, he mentioned v the rags, then he said "the only game where we've really turned up was against Man City ". An Everton fan said something similar a short while ago, lamenting their pathetic effort levels v rags.
Teams have shut up shop against us in a way rarely seen in the Premier League because there has rarely been a team who can play like us. If we play shit, as in the 1st half v Swansea, sure they will come out & have a go, but once we start to pass the ball, they drop back into a wall in front of the box. Even Chelsea did that v us yet played wide open like Brian Horton's City v the rags (twice).
The way around it was shown v Blackburn at home. Width & tempo. We had AJ hugging the right, & Silva + Aguero taking turns to get chalk on their boots on the left. Our midfield fired the ball quickly from one side to the other. We were different that day to any other game this season. No team in the league could live with that. Our pass & move game, plus width, played at tempo is unstoppable. If we had done that at Swansea, we would have throttled them, but we didn't, we strolled around the middle.
Chuck on wide players & go for it at tempo, fire the ball into the box & if neccessary, play Aguero, Balotelli, Dzeko & Tevez at the same time for the second half & tell all of them to cross, shoot & keep doing it over & over & over until it goes in.
brite blu sky wrote:Ted Hughes wrote:I think it's dead simple. We put 6 past the rags. That's our problem.
There was a QPR supporter on the radio a week or so ago, lamenting how poor and half hearted they had been in many games, he mentioned v the rags, then he said "the only game where we've really turned up was against Man City ". An Everton fan said something similar a short while ago, lamenting their pathetic effort levels v rags.
Teams have shut up shop against us in a way rarely seen in the Premier League because there has rarely been a team who can play like us. If we play shit, as in the 1st half v Swansea, sure they will come out & have a go, but once we start to pass the ball, they drop back into a wall in front of the box. Even Chelsea did that v us yet played wide open like Brian Horton's City v the rags (twice).
The way around it was shown v Blackburn at home. Width & tempo. We had AJ hugging the right, & Silva + Aguero taking turns to get chalk on their boots on the left. Our midfield fired the ball quickly from one side to the other. We were different that day to any other game this season. No team in the league could live with that. Our pass & move game, plus width, played at tempo is unstoppable. If we had done that at Swansea, we would have throttled them, but we didn't, we strolled around the middle.
Chuck on wide players & go for it at tempo, fire the ball into the box & if neccessary, play Aguero, Balotelli, Dzeko & Tevez at the same time for the second half & tell all of them to cross, shoot & keep doing it over & over & over until it goes in.
I think it was the BB game I was meaning above. Closing down very high up and passing with speed.
Conclusion: We can do it... when the tactics are right?, when the oppo are compliant?, when the players are awake? When they feel like it? When everyone is on form? When they relax, take 'risks' and don't try too hard?
Ultimately what we dont like to take into consideration as fans, cos we tend to be one season orientated at best, is that the getting it right is a process of development and learning... is there a rule book for that? is there a set time frame?
The answer is no. This set of players with this manager will come good, very good, for 95 to 100% of games.
brite blu sky wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:you have inadvertantly hit the nail right on the head with your post. Its not about the number of chances we get, its about the type of chance it is. You said "how many times have we hit it over the bar or smashed it straight at the keeper"
This is the very crux of the matter, and i would argue that itis not wasteful, it is that the chances we create are usually from threading the ball through the middle, by which time the attacking player turns to face goal and has an onrushing keeper to deal with. The ball invariably ends up over the bar or hitting the keeper by simple laws of averages.
Compare that to many of the goals you see the rags score, sweeping move, ball goes out wide, crossed in, rooney or someone else is in acres of space with a free header/shot and an eternity till it reaches him to decide what to do with it. They also score goals from outside the area with regularity.
Goals from outside the area come from not having a sea of defenders in front of you. However we press so high up the pitch, there is always going to be is sea, and its going to be rare that a player either gets the space, and does not have bodies in the way.
We have to try to play a little deeper, to give the forwards space to run onto passes, rather than recieve a pass and expect them to do miracles with the ball at their feet.
I think this is starting to get it about right. The lack of urgency (for whatever reason that exists at the moment) allows the dynamic on the field to stack the odds against opportunity. Less chance to shoot on goal cos too many bodies, less space to exploit, less time etc etc etc. More urgency would solve that to some extent.
So why have we lost the urgency we had earlier?
My take is that the players know this and are trying to deal with it.. but trying too hard to be perfect and stuttering. Otherwise I don't have a plausible explanation.
I do think that there is an attempt to emulate barca.. obviously for good reason. But as i have been saying since the year dot, City/Mancini have to take the best and improve it, not just try to make a cheap copy. A high proportion of barca games are not worth the effort to watch, they know they are going to win, the oppo as well so you get this slow cat and caged mouse game where barca try to engineer the perfect opening for Messi or Xavi to run in and tap it in. It is fuclin boring and I for one seriously hope City do not go down that route.. and there are alarming signs that they already are.
Personally I believe the answer is in the excert I posted earlier in this thread. We played Bolton? I cant remember exactly now, but we closed them down very high up the pitch like we were rabid.. and totally wiped them out, great game full of energy, quick thinking, speed of play.
For me it starts there, if the team can't be bothered to close down they are not putting the effort in and are not fully awake to what they are doing and it is a slippy slope to mediocracy, uncertainty and mistakes.
As Spartacus points out it is the type of chances that football is all about. Winning the ball back nearly always leaves the opposition in some way with it's pants down..or at least on the wrong foot. Simple from trying to go forwards to shifting your weight to go back is a moment in time that, eg. David Silva, can have completely destroyed your teamwork.
I had expected City to go through a difficult patch while they try in earnest to click properly, during this time they try TOO hard. eez normal! I had expected that would have happened by now.. but maybe it needed the lead to go and the pressure to really fuclin kick in for minds to clear and natural ability and instinct to take over.
In short if we play with urgency the rest will eventually come, our players are too good a quality for anything else to happen.
Someone soon is going to get a tonking.. I think City and Mancini are pussy footing around still.. so it maynot be till we go to the Emirates that this happens. I wouldn't be surprised either.
Ted Hughes wrote:brite blu sky wrote:Ted Hughes wrote:I think it's dead simple. We put 6 past the rags. That's our problem.
There was a QPR supporter on the radio a week or so ago, lamenting how poor and half hearted they had been in many games, he mentioned v the rags, then he said "the only game where we've really turned up was against Man City ". An Everton fan said something similar a short while ago, lamenting their pathetic effort levels v rags.
Teams have shut up shop against us in a way rarely seen in the Premier League because there has rarely been a team who can play like us. If we play shit, as in the 1st half v Swansea, sure they will come out & have a go, but once we start to pass the ball, they drop back into a wall in front of the box. Even Chelsea did that v us yet played wide open like Brian Horton's City v the rags (twice).
The way around it was shown v Blackburn at home. Width & tempo. We had AJ hugging the right, & Silva + Aguero taking turns to get chalk on their boots on the left. Our midfield fired the ball quickly from one side to the other. We were different that day to any other game this season. No team in the league could live with that. Our pass & move game, plus width, played at tempo is unstoppable. If we had done that at Swansea, we would have throttled them, but we didn't, we strolled around the middle.
Chuck on wide players & go for it at tempo, fire the ball into the box & if neccessary, play Aguero, Balotelli, Dzeko & Tevez at the same time for the second half & tell all of them to cross, shoot & keep doing it over & over & over until it goes in.
I think it was the BB game I was meaning above. Closing down very high up and passing with speed.
Conclusion: We can do it... when the tactics are right?, when the oppo are compliant?, when the players are awake? When they feel like it? When everyone is on form? When they relax, take 'risks' and don't try too hard?
Ultimately what we dont like to take into consideration as fans, cos we tend to be one season orientated at best, is that the getting it right is a process of development and learning... is there a rule book for that? is there a set time frame?
The answer is no. This set of players with this manager will come good, very good, for 95 to 100% of games.
I think all the development stuff is now for the summer. It's balls out 'we're better than you' football which is required.
A tactical game is probably required v rags & Arsenal to some extent but for the rest of them, we have the players to just steamroller them. Just go for it, chuck everything at them trying to score goals as if our lives depended on it. Which is the point of the thread I suppose; a frenzy of attacking football. There's no time to be nervous or ponderous if you're going full tilt, balls out for the win, the adrenaline is pumping already.
If we chuck in the kitchen sink, we will win all those other games imo & the title will come down to the Arsenal & Utd games (provided rags handle the pressure of us winning without them slipping up, which I'm not convinced they will if we press them).
We can crush all of these fuckers, but not unless we really get stuck in; we can't cruise through it any longer.
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