Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

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Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Beefymcfc » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:41 am

Who could do better than Mancini? Only Jose the clincher or Pep the builder

For Manchester City, any change at the top this summer will boil down to a simple question: do they want to be Real Madrid or Barcelona? After coming so close, which is the way forward? Is it to bring in a clincher, like Jose Mourinho, a manager with a genius for the final step, turning also-rans into title winners, title winners into champions of Europe?

Or should City’s target be a coach capable of shaping the direction of the club long term, like Pep Guardiola, tasked with introducing a playing philosophy to be emulated by generation after generation, a man who will work with the fruits of the academy springing up in the shadow of the Etihad Stadium?

So ambitious is the Manchester City project that there really is little alternative. If Roberto Mancini is in his last season at the club — and there has been no formal discussion of his position yet, let alone a decision made — it cannot be a gratuitous act.

Was Andre Villas-Boas really an upgrade from Carlo Ancelotti at Chelsea; and who in their right mind would replace Mourinho with Avram Grant? City must consider not just individuals but policy. Guarantee the title at whatever cost or lay the foundations for success and grow organically?

Everything seems to come down to Real Madrid versus Barcelona these days, even machinations within our own Premier League.

Mancini’s position will be item one on the agenda at a May meeting primarily involving Sheik Mansour, chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak and director of football Brian Marwood. There is no point having this now. Mourinho and Guardiola are locked in a battle for supremacy in Spain and, quite probably, Europe, too. They have representatives capable of making encouraging noises, but too much is uncertain.

If he becomes the first manager to retain the European title in its Champions League format, will Guardiola consider his race run at Barcelona? If he falls to Madrid in one, or both, competitions, will he be willing to depart such a glorious era as a loser?

Equally, is the domestic title enough to satisfy Mourinho’s ego or will he want more? If he fails to usurp Barcelona this season, is he prepared to move on with the job unfinished for the first time in his coaching career? City cannot know any of this for sure; the most they can discover through third parties is whether, in principle, Mourinho or Guardiola could be approached.

Would they be prepared to close a door at Manchester United by opening one to City, for instance? The prospect of Sir Alex Ferguson’s retirement is another complication because Mourinho is known to covet the successor’s role at Old Trafford and it would surely appeal to Guardiola also. Yet if either man works for City first, he is unemployable at United. So City wait. The title is as good as gone, but how it plays out under Mancini remains significant.

These are complex times. City are improving: fifth to third to second under Mancini. That last step was always going to be the toughest.

When City sacked Mark Hughes it was felt he was resistant to change. His employers wanted an additional coach, with European experience, acting as a bridge between management and high-profile new arrivals such as Robinho. Hughes thought he could get by with his existing backroom team, Mark Bowen and Eddie Niedzwiecki. The club insisted they could not move forward with that arrangement; Hughes refused to budge. There was only going to be one winner.

With Mancini, it is different. There has been a willingness to admit mistakes, not least over Mario Balotelli, who will be moved on, having shown no readiness to conform.

‘If we do not win the league, Roberto will know why and he will be willing to address it,’ one senior City executive said earlier this year. He also insisted Mancini was safe, no matter the outcome. So maybe he still is.

Maybe, though, if Guardiola or Mourinho became available that would be a game-changer. Mancini has certainly not messed up so badly that he could be replaced by the flavour of the month. It would take one of Europe’s two great coaches to inspire change and, right now, the odds seem to favour Guardiola.

Manchester City is run from Abu Dhabi, not Dubai. This is not a culture of boom and bust. Abu Dhabi likes structure, Abu Dhabi likes a plan. City have spent big, City have spent quickly, City were itching to get in the game by recruiting Kaka, but there is caution, too. Lately the focus has been on development. City would want Guardiola as much for his work at La Masia academy as his triumphs with Barcelona’s first team. He offers the whole package.

Mourinho, by contrast, comes at a price. Not just in terms of the transfer market, but in his philosophy, too. There isn’t one, bar victory. He is not an investor. He comes in, does a job — invariably a quite brilliant job — and leaves. Is this what City want? Perhaps it is. Perhaps the need to wrench the title from Manchester United is so great that the club would compromise a 10-year plan for a two-year whirlwind, and then start again if the manager departs.

Mourinho delivers, no doubt about that. Roman Abramovich craved a title at Chelsea, Inter Milan longed for European dominance, Real Madrid wanted to overtake Barcelona. Mourinho is like a contract killer, making the hit and moving on. The majority of City supporters would pay the bounty right now and to hell with the consequences.

Yet what of the third option? What if Guardiola and Mourinho cannot be tempted? Indeed, what if they can? Has Mancini really done such a terrible job? Saturday night in Augusta and around the dinner table the conversation turned to City’s sharp decline.

The consensus was that Mancini was losing the title to an inferior Manchester United team. How many City players would make United’s starting line-up, it was asked. Most had a City majority. I had five. Broadening it to create an 18-man squad, I ended up with a 12-6 split in United’s favour. How so?

Here goes: Goalkeeper, Joe Hart, obviously. Central defenders, Vincent Kompany and Rio Ferdinand. A midfield four, right to left, of Luis Antonio Valencia, Phil Jones, Yaya Toure and David Silva. Forward line: Sergio Aguero and Wayne Rooney. No full backs, I know.

There’s a reason for this. I would swap the full backs at either Manchester club for Tottenham Hotspur pair Kyle Walker and Benoit Assou-Ekotto, or a combination of Bacary Sagna at Arsenal and Leighton Baines of Everton. At a push, though, I would go with the United pair Chris Smalling and Patrice Evra.

The substitutes’ bench is then almost exclusively red. David de Gea (it has to be, really), Micah Richards, Nemanja Vidic, Michael Carrick, Nani, Paul Scholes, Ashley Young. Balotelli was included initially, but no more. Winning the title requires a nutter-free zone.

There is debate to be had, I know. A few months earlier, City might have shaded it, but the point is this: Mancini has certainly not got a squad that is so far ahead of Manchester United’s that his failure is indisputable, his dismissal inevitable. At any point in the season, bar the immediate aftermath of City’s 6-1 win at Old Trafford, United would have contributed a central defender, two midfield players and a striker to the best XI from the two clubs. They also have the likely Footballer of the Year in Rooney.

Yes, Mancini has made mistakes at City. The gamble on the nature of Balotelli and Carlos Tevez did not come off. Edin Dzeko is very ordinary for the money. And Mancini sometimes lacks daring at key moments — Sunday’s game at Arsenal had echoes of the Tottenham match two years ago, when City conceded their Champions League place. Without doubt his team froze at a crucial part of the season.

Yet there is no exhaustive list of managers that could do better. Just two men, two polar opposites. What City require is a composite, too. The will to win of Mourinho, the fatherly concern of Guardiola. Put them together, and what have you got? Sir Alex Ferguson. Bad luck, Your Highness — because you’re not going to get him.

[urlnp=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2127914/Only-Jose-Mourinho-Pep-Guardiola-better-Roberto-Mancini-Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz1riOsIIrZ]Link[/urlnp]
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Kladze » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:02 am

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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Dubciteh » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:06 am

I like samuel but i dont agree with his mix of city/utd squad, says he would put walker and assou ekoto ahead of both teams fullback? he must of lost his mind!
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Blue Since 76 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:17 am

A reasonable assessment that lines up with most that's been said in here. He may be saved by lack of a decent alternative.

But Smalling at right back ahead of zabaleta or Richards? And since Vidic has missed all season with injury how did he get in? If we're going off last season, Tevez should be there.

The rest of the team and subs shows how far City's stock has fallen as the season has gone on. Unfortunately, most of that squad was bought by Mancini, so it's hardly an encouraging reason to give him carte blanche to overhaul the squad.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:37 am

I maybe stand to be educated on this, but for all the credit guardiola takes for the youth development of barcelona, is it not a fact that the system was conceived and implemented well over a decade ago by cryuff.

I dont see what guardiola has done, other than to manage the exceptional products of that academy, and spend ridiculous amounts of money on players like ibra to complement them.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:43 am

Why is rooney a formality to be player of the year?

What happened to rvp?
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Niall Quinns Discopants » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:47 am

Beefymcfc wrote:These are complex times. City are improving: fifth to third to second under Mancini. That last step was always going to be the toughest.


That's the bottom line.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby ashton287 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:57 am

Where is the wag to go along with this bollocks?

Hart-obviously
Lescott pisses all over Ferdinand, he has fucking carried Vincent on numerous occasions this year.
Phil jones? FUCK RIGHT OFF he is a joke.
Rooney player of the year? Yeaaahhhhhh. The only possible reason you could give it Rooney is his scoring form, which isn't as good as van persie's and therefore he can't have it. But he is still better than balo and dzeko so yeah.
Evra would be a yes, he is just better than clichy, he is also miles better than ekotto. This guy just chats shit.
Smalling is a baffling one, he has played about 6 times this season and never looked anything like decent yet Richards was undeniably the best right back in the league before his injuries kicked in.
Valencia - I wouldn't say no.
Carrick and scholes yet no Barry? Only a rag would ever come out with this bullshit.
Silva - on current form I wouldn't put him on the bench.
Also where is the defensive mid in his setup? Is it supposed to be yaya? Has he ever seen yaya play?

It's a classic MOTD 6 minute highlights team selection.

Players that would get into our team are Valencia, Evra, nani, young and Rooney. The rest are shit and only get away with it because they are playing for the scum and taggart gets to pick his own fucking refs to do his bidding.

And guardiola would be about 30 points behind real without messi and we don't have a messi. This whole article is wank.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Beefymcfc » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:30 am

Im_Spartacus wrote:I maybe stand to be educated on this, but for all the credit guardiola takes for the youth development of barcelona, is it not a fact that the system was conceived and implemented well over a decade ago by cryuff.

I dont see what guardiola has done, other than to manage the exceptional products of that academy, and spend ridiculous amounts of money on players like ibra to complement them.

I don't get it either. The system was implemented by Laporta while Rijkaard was manager and when Rijkaard was sacked Guardiola, who was the Youth Team boss, took over bringing the set-up into focus. Guardiola was also part of excellent Cruyff team of the '90s.

He's not managed anywhere else and would be a big mistake in my opinion. Yes, he could set-up our youth policy on which we want to rely on in the future but to manage the full thing would be just too big a job, I feel.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Beefymcfc » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:38 am

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:These are complex times. City are improving: fifth to third to second under Mancini. That last step was always going to be the toughest.


That's the bottom line.

Strangely, although that's not my quote I said the exact same thing yesterday. I've tried to find a team that has gone from our situation to now in such a short time but couldn't find one. It's as if you've got to do it step-by-step and finishing second is a pre-requisite to pushing for the title. I only looked over the past 20 years or so, so it could've happened, just not in the modern era.

It makes me wonder why though, as although a big feat you'd think that a team could be pulled together (similar to ours) and go straight to the top. Seems it doesn't happen and it got me thinking whether it wasn't just about the football.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Esky » Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:44 am

Im_Spartacus wrote:I maybe stand to be educated on this, but for all the credit guardiola takes for the youth development of barcelona, is it not a fact that the system was conceived and implemented well over a decade ago by cryuff.

I dont see what guardiola has done, other than to manage the exceptional products of that academy, and spend ridiculous amounts of money on players like ibra to complement them.


To be honest, I don't understand why he's so venerated either. He's La Masia through and through, and his records/achievements with Barca aren't to be questioned (especially the thing about having never having lost in 90 minutes to Madrid), but I don't see why it's such a given that he'd be able to well elsewhere.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby grim up north » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:19 am

Is the point of the article quick fix or building a dynasty
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:32 am

He has made a sensible case for all 3 managers & there is a decent argument for all 3 managers, which is pretty much what I've been saying.

I can't see a decent argument for a 4th choice.

Although some of his team/squad selections are a bit bizarre & the London bias creeps in, he has highlighted a very important point, which is that if a neutral picked the best 18 players now, Utd would have the majority. That's not because they've been brilliant or are better, it's because so many of our players have been either mediocre, inconsistant or unsuited to the task even though they are top notch players.

We have a lot of expensive, high quality, but not particularly useful players. There's nothing wrong with them, thy're just not what the team needs most of the time. A fair bit of that is Bob's fault & must also be Marwood's & the chief scout's.

Ferguson's squad is inferior but it is much more suited to what he needs than ours is to Bob.

That's because he knows how he wants to play & builds for it but Bob can't make his mind up.


Now he needs to decide how we play, sign the right players to suit it & get rid of everything we don't need.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby avoidconfusion » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:41 am

Kladze wrote:Frank Reikjard.


Kidding?
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Beefymcfc » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:19 am

Ted Hughes wrote:He has made a sensible case for all 3 managers & there is a decent argument for all 3 managers, which is pretty much what I've been saying.

I can't see a decent argument for a 4th choice.

Although some of his team/squad selections are a bit bizarre & the London bias creeps in, he has highlighted a very important point, which is that if a neutral picked the best 18 players now, Utd would have the majority. That's not because they've been brilliant or are better, it's because so many of our players have been either mediocre, inconsistant or unsuited to the task even though they are top notch players.

We have a lot of expensive, high quality, but not particularly useful players. There's nothing wrong with them, thy're just not what the team needs most of the time. A fair bit of that is Bob's fault & must also be Marwood's & the chief scout's.

Ferguson's squad is inferior but it is much more suited to what he needs than ours is to Bob.

That's because he knows how he wants to play & builds for it but Bob can't make his mind up.

Now he needs to decide how we play, sign the right players to suit it & get rid of everything we don't need.

See, this is where I think you are wrong mate. Mancini does know how he wants to play but is making do with what he has got. Before the season started Mancini was telling everybody that he didn't have the squad that he wanted and that he was being hindered in bringing in the required players. We know that one of those players was Sanchez who ended up at Barca which probably led to us picking up Nasri after it went cold.

In my view it was all to do with FFP and our willingness to conform to the rules. We were still holding Tevez, Ade et al who were on huge sums and only until we could clear these players would we be able to bring in the next waive that Bobby wanted. Them not going crippled him in a way and has led us to not being able to bring in adequate cover/quality/change to the ranks. He told us all, we told him to stop whinging.

It's all relative.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby PeterParker » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:27 am

I don't know why is this fuss about Pep. Don't get me wrong, he is a world class human, he is charismatic and i think every player at that club really loves him, but he didn't prove anything yet without his trio, did he?

I saw Barca a thew times this season without Messi this season and they looked poor. They had a game a month ago, i think, with a bottom team, i think it was Gijon and they won after a screamer by Keita, after having huge emotions and that was in their own ground. I don't think Pep will fit the english leagua and if he will, it would take a thew years to do that.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:30 am

Beefymcfc wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:He has made a sensible case for all 3 managers & there is a decent argument for all 3 managers, which is pretty much what I've been saying.

I can't see a decent argument for a 4th choice.

Although some of his team/squad selections are a bit bizarre & the London bias creeps in, he has highlighted a very important point, which is that if a neutral picked the best 18 players now, Utd would have the majority. That's not because they've been brilliant or are better, it's because so many of our players have been either mediocre, inconsistant or unsuited to the task even though they are top notch players.

We have a lot of expensive, high quality, but not particularly useful players. There's nothing wrong with them, thy're just not what the team needs most of the time. A fair bit of that is Bob's fault & must also be Marwood's & the chief scout's.

Ferguson's squad is inferior but it is much more suited to what he needs than ours is to Bob.

That's because he knows how he wants to play & builds for it but Bob can't make his mind up.

Now he needs to decide how we play, sign the right players to suit it & get rid of everything we don't need.

See, this is where I think you are wrong mate. Mancini does know how he wants to play but is making do with what he has got. Before the season started Mancini was telling everybody that he didn't have the squad that he wanted and that he was being hindered in bringing in the required players. We know that one of those players was Sanchez who ended up at Barca which probably led to us picking up Nasri after it went cold.

In my view it was all to do with FFP and our willingness to conform to the rules. We were still holding Tevez, Ade et al who were on huge sums and only until we could clear these players would we be able to bring in the next waive that Bobby wanted. Them not going crippled him in a way and has led us to not being able to bring in adequate cover/quality/change to the ranks. He told us all, we told him to stop whinging.

It's all relative.


Can't agree with that mate. He's bought Dzeko, Balotelli, Milner, Kolarov, Nasri for huge money and doesn't know how to fit them into a team or what style it should play.

Ferguson would have signed Dzeko plus 3 wingers who could also play other positions take free kicks & score goals. Then a cheapo 4th striker.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Beefymcfc » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:40 am

Ted Hughes wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:He has made a sensible case for all 3 managers & there is a decent argument for all 3 managers, which is pretty much what I've been saying.

I can't see a decent argument for a 4th choice.

Although some of his team/squad selections are a bit bizarre & the London bias creeps in, he has highlighted a very important point, which is that if a neutral picked the best 18 players now, Utd would have the majority. That's not because they've been brilliant or are better, it's because so many of our players have been either mediocre, inconsistant or unsuited to the task even though they are top notch players.

We have a lot of expensive, high quality, but not particularly useful players. There's nothing wrong with them, thy're just not what the team needs most of the time. A fair bit of that is Bob's fault & must also be Marwood's & the chief scout's.

Ferguson's squad is inferior but it is much more suited to what he needs than ours is to Bob.

That's because he knows how he wants to play & builds for it but Bob can't make his mind up.

Now he needs to decide how we play, sign the right players to suit it & get rid of everything we don't need.

See, this is where I think you are wrong mate. Mancini does know how he wants to play but is making do with what he has got. Before the season started Mancini was telling everybody that he didn't have the squad that he wanted and that he was being hindered in bringing in the required players. We know that one of those players was Sanchez who ended up at Barca which probably led to us picking up Nasri after it went cold.

In my view it was all to do with FFP and our willingness to conform to the rules. We were still holding Tevez, Ade et al who were on huge sums and only until we could clear these players would we be able to bring in the next waive that Bobby wanted. Them not going crippled him in a way and has led us to not being able to bring in adequate cover/quality/change to the ranks. He told us all, we told him to stop whinging.

It's all relative.


Can't agree with that mate. He's bought Dzeko, Balotelli, Milner, Kolarov, Nasri for huge money and doesn't know how to fit them into a team or what style it should play.

Ferguson would have signed Dzeko plus 3 wingers who could also play other positions take free kicks & score goals. Then a cheapo 4th striker.

Didn't he buy Aguero as well? The truth is he has fitted them all into a style that for the majority of games have been successful. It's the games where we needed to change and get the width in that he hasn't been able to change due to lack of quality individuals. Kolarov has given us an outlet here but even when he whips the ball in there never seems to be anybody there, even with men up-front.

And, as I said, Tevez, Ade, Bridge, RSC et al not going out the door has hindered his purchases as I feel if they'd have gone then we would've been a lot busier in the market, probably bringing in someone in to get that ball whipped in, a proper out-and-out winger.

As for Taggart, why are you referring to him as some sort of comparison? Did he win the title in his 3rd year or are you referring to him as of today?
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Alioune DVToure » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 am

The scum squad wouldn't have won the league with any other manager, and Bacon would've won the league at a canter with the players at Mancini's disposal. I don't think too many people would disagree with that.

Despite being a rancid old twat, he is a cut above any manager currently plying his trade in English football (and probably the world). As soon as he fires off, they're the new Liverpool. May that day come sooner rather than later.

Let's keep Mancini. I know the last month has cost us dearly and his policy with the Euro and domestic cups was baffling, but we've improved immeasurably in his two-and-a-half years and we'll get there eventually.
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Re: Martin Samuel - Who could do better than Mancini?

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:51 am

I'm rerferring to Ferguson as of today & the reason I didn't mention Aguero is because he is someone Bob has signed which has worked. The others we could have done without. I could have added Savic, AJ, Boateng if it was purely about listing signings which don't fit, I'm just giving a few examples of top quality players who we don't really use properly & who we could have not bothered signing.

Ferguson btw wouldn't be considered good enough for the City job if he was still at Aberdeen & there would be no chance of him being given time to learn from his mistakes if he did get the job (see Hughes).

Your use of the phrase 'fitting them into' is exactly what I'm talking about.

I have seen Silva played as a shit winger, Nasri played as a shit winger & Milner played as a shit winger as well as AJ played as a non crossing winger on his wrong foot & Kolarov as a shit winger or shit wing back.

Most of us (I suspect including you) would have, at some point, signed a proper winger & tried it with him instead.

Plan 'A' at it's best has produced some of the best fotball we have ever seen but as soon as we need something different, for most of the time it's been square pegs in round holes.
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
Ted Hughes
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