Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby john68 » Sat May 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Just trawling through some legal opinion on this which I shall keep adding here for opinions and debate.

A study by Daniel Geey of Field, Fisher, Waterhouse, makes the point that the FFp can have a distortive effect on competition in domestic leagues.
A club targeting UeFA qualification will be encumbered by the FFP in the transfer market, whereas a club who is not doing so, operates within a looser set of transfer controls and can spend more freely.

Giving this aspect a little more thought. as an example, we could take Liverpool and Spurs. Spurs through good fiscal and football management have got themselves into a position where they can reasonably expect to challenge for UeFA qualification. They are encumbered from taking an investment risk to consolidate their position and increase their chances.
Liverpool through poor football management have faded and are now a midtable club with little chance of challenging the top 6 and getting into any UeFA competition. They wish to close the gap between them and the top 6 but unlike Spurs, they are not encumbered by the FFP rules and because they can afford it, they spend more freely.
Though it may disbar them temporarily from UeFA comps, it gives them an advantage domestically in other competitions and allows them to be more competitive in the league and close the competitive gap on the likes of Spurs
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby john68 » Sat May 19, 2012 4:04 pm

From the same study as previous:

Ref: Annexe XI
The contracts and wages of players signed before 1st June 2010 will not be considered in the FFP. That also means any renewed contracts of players signed before that date.
For City, that means Kompany, Zabaleta, Bridge, de Jong, Barry, Santa Cruz, Boyata, Taylor, Tevez, Adebayor, Kolo, Lescott and Johnson, who were all sined before that date.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Tokyo Blue » Sat May 19, 2012 4:09 pm

Beefymcfc wrote:'...because until they pay', what the fuck does that actually mean? Seems he is implying that we will pay for what we are achieving, or over-achieving is what he is saying. But why say this, he knows our owner has turned his spending into equity rather than what Abramovich has done with Chelsea and held the club to account?


I think he means "as long as they pay".

Still largely bollocks what he's saying though.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Rag_hater » Sat May 19, 2012 4:34 pm

I can't see any rules they have made to enter their comp that we have broken.The sponsorship deals are something nobody has any precedent to follow.Any other rules we are complying with so they can't ban us for following rules they have made
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Beefymcfc » Sat May 19, 2012 5:37 pm

Rag_hater wrote:I can't see any rules they have made to enter their comp that we have broken.The sponsorship deals are something nobody has any precedent to follow.Any other rules we are complying with so they can't ban us for following rules they have made

Correct. Haven't United and Liverpool just signed massive sponsorship deals, 40 mil per year? Also, haven't United just had their training kit sponsored for 10 mil a year?

If those figures are correct then that's still well above our reported 35 mil a year. Maybe we'll be getting a few more sponsors soon though/up our current deals. After all, we are the Premier League title winners.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby mcfc1632 » Sun May 20, 2012 5:02 am

Ted Hughes wrote:I don't pretend to be an expert in these matters but I don't agree that UEFA have answered the points raised, at all.

And the key point to my position has always been that City will try to circumnavigate this by 'sponsorship', not by confrontation.

This is one of the key areas imo.

The system set out for dealing with that is sketchy at best & seems to be at the behest of some panel who decide one kind of sponsorship is ok and another is not. That is the area where I see the shit hitting the fan if UEFA challenge us, as I recon City will be able to show literally thousands of instances of peopple at football clubs, in European competition, with family, business or other connections to companies which partly or wholly sponsor said club.

If they are to take City to task, I recon they'll have to do the same with thousands of people & several governments, otherwise they are singling us out as a special case.

I do not believe that UEFA can stich us up with impunity & I don't think they believe it either.



Ted - I fully agree with you on this point - we just need to keep growing sponsorships - winning the PL was very important. You are right - the key difficultly for UeFA will be in arbitrarily determining that our revenues do not count and that is a place where we could challenge and very likely win.

A reason that I was so disappointed to see Cook leave – we do seem to have slowed down on sponsorships.

Look at the model and you quickly see how the rules are designed to help the clubs with significant turnover – even if in massive debt.

I have previously said that we need 2 or 3 more years of 25% year on year growth and we are clear
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby zuricity » Sun May 20, 2012 5:37 am

I fully expect Chavski, Man Ure, Spuds, die Arse, Bayern, Juve, Ac Milan, Inter, Madrid and Barca to invest heavily in new players this summer. Let's see what that big toad Platini says.

If Chelsea don't invest big they will struggle next season, so too Arse and Spuds. Bayern could well losecsome key players in the summer and they aren't getting any younger.

It should be an interesting summer on the transfer market.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby ant london » Sun May 20, 2012 7:17 am

mcfc1632 wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:I don't pretend to be an expert in these matters but I don't agree that UEFA have answered the points raised, at all.

And the key point to my position has always been that City will try to circumnavigate this by 'sponsorship', not by confrontation.

This is one of the key areas imo.




Ted - I fully agree with you on this point - we just need to keep growing sponsorships - winning the PL was very important. You are right - the key difficultly for UeFA will be in arbitrarily determining that our revenues do not count and that is a place where we could challenge and very likely win.

A reason that I was so disappointed to see Cook leave – we do seem to have slowed down on sponsorships.



Fully agree with you both on these points. We are clearly trying to really push up our top line revenues via commercial partnership revenue and also competition-derived income. At the same time we know that the need to invest heavily in (excessively) expensive new signings has now passed and all we really need to do is now trim down the fatty expense from the squad in terms of the players we have out on loan costing us top dollar (which is clearly occupying budget that could be used on new, useful playing resources).

I think we are very happy to bring in sponsorship from Etihad and other potentially "related parties" and to have that future fight with UEFA and their advisors that the value of those deals is not fair market value.

It is an argument with absolutely no black and white parameters to which UEFA can reference. City is totally unique in terms of its value to partners in Abu Dhabi as they are investing for very different reasons to (say) the relationship between Standard Chartered and Liverpool. Thus the market values of each transaction bear absolutely no relation to one another and UEFA cannot categorically claim or prove anything in relation to the "fairness" of sponsorship deals we complete.


In terms of "slowdown" of us signing new deals post Cook, I believe that may well have been a deliberate stategy in the hope that we did indeed win the title and increase the market value we could command. Be interesting to see what happens over the next 6-12 months in that regard
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby ant london » Sun May 20, 2012 7:20 am

zuricity wrote:I fully expect Chavski, Man Ure, Spuds, die Arse, Bayern, Juve, Ac Milan, Inter, Madrid and Barca to invest heavily in new players this summer. Let's see what that big toad Platini says.

If Chelsea don't invest big they will struggle next season, so too Arse and Spuds. Bayern could well losecsome key players in the summer and they aren't getting any younger.

It should be an interesting summer on the transfer market.



I'm actually fascinated to see what last night's CL win does to Roman's desire to stay and begin investing heavily in Chelsea again.

I would not be at all surprised if his interest now waned further if I'm honest. He's now got the big prize he's always wanted and now all he's left with is quite an uncertain and costly project to bring in a new manager and rebuild a squad which has just finished sixth in the PL and looked in now way remotely good enough to challenge for the title.


How he might be able to exit is another matter altogether but I saw that some Qatari group had been in talks with them about the move to Battersea Power Station and I would not be remotely surprised if he sold up either in part or in full over the coming year
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun May 20, 2012 8:17 am

The potential 'liesure destination' thingy hasn't even been announced yet & no doubt that will be a huge source of revenue when it's built. I imagine that will be part of our case if and when UEFA start asking questions as to our compliance with their rules for future financial stability.

In the meantime, if we are to comply with the rules as they stand, we need absolutely enormous increase in revenue pretty much immediately, as we are just about to splash out big money again & so far can't even cover the wage bill without the Sheikh chipping in.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Rag_hater » Sun May 20, 2012 8:44 am

ant london wrote:
zuricity wrote:I fully expect Chavski, Man Ure, Spuds, die Arse, Bayern, Juve, Ac Milan, Inter, Madrid and Barca to invest heavily in new players this summer. Let's see what that big toad Platini says.

If Chelsea don't invest big they will struggle next season, so too Arse and Spuds. Bayern could well losecsome key players in the summer and they aren't getting any younger.

It should be an interesting summer on the transfer market.



I'm actually fascinated to see what last night's CL win does to Roman's desire to stay and begin investing heavily in Chelsea again.

I would not be at all surprised if his interest now waned further if I'm honest. He's now got the big prize he's always wanted and now all he's left with is quite an uncertain and costly project to bring in a new manager and rebuild a squad which has just finished sixth in the PL and looked in now way remotely good enough to challenge for the title.


How he might be able to exit is another matter altogether but I saw that some Qatari group had been in talks with them about the move to Battersea Power Station and I would not be remotely surprised if he sold up either in part or in full over the coming year


He looked really made upto me think the opposite to you and this will make him get his hand in his pocket
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby ant london » Sun May 20, 2012 8:47 am

It will go one way or the other RH I think that is for certain. He will either look to spend big and do it again or get out. I think the latter as I think his Russian ego will now be sated by the win and he won't see any value in the time, money, effort and risk in trying to rebuild to do it again.

Obviously though, there needs to be a buyer who comes to him with the right offer. I'd say that Qatar (or a similar state) is the only likely place such an offer would come from at present
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Swales4ever » Sun May 20, 2012 9:13 am

The legal points raised by 1632 are very solid. it couldn't be otherwise, appearing him to be the sole debater with specific professional experience of the matter.
though, he seems to me to approach the issue too much on academic point of view, while what is to face is living case, whereas it should be taken in the mix either legal and political stances.

Imo, it would be crucial that the Club will continue to act and show in accordance with the full will of compliance, BUT also keeping up with all options open to react to any attempt to damp the project.
Along the last 2 seasons we have kept debating about how flexibly the drawing of financial statements can be set to circumnavigate the FFP and the point recalled by Rag_hater about sponsorships is a worth reminder.
In a nutshell, my overall point stands to be: finance and the menace of legal challenge are weapons while politics is the awareness of when to shot them.
The Club is utterly blessed to have such a top quality Owners and Chairman and I really don't see them letting the G14 damping their project. The next market window will be very telling on their perception of the actual threat from KHR, Twatini & acolytes.

1. "unintelligible language"
2. "ACID QUEEN"
3. "never once fails to turn a football thread into a himseelf thread"
4. "thumbs stalker often resulting in repetitive thumb strain"
5. ignore the cunt. he's on permantent wum mission. only TIDs may know City

You'd need to make a very good psychiatrist in order to guess what next in a eight yrs long line of hatred...


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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby mcfc1632 » Sun May 20, 2012 9:16 am

Tokyo Blue wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:'...because until they pay', what the fuck does that actually mean? Seems he is implying that we will pay for what we are achieving, or over-achieving is what he is saying. But why say this, he knows our owner has turned his spending into equity rather than what Abramovich has done with Chelsea and held the club to account?


I think he means "as long as they pay".

Still largely bollocks what he's saying though.



I read that as meaning 'pay' as in are 'punished' - i.e. we will carry on until punished showing an intention on Twatini's behalf to perform a punishment
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Swales4ever » Sun May 20, 2012 9:25 am

mcfc1632 wrote:
Tokyo Blue wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:'...because until they pay', what the fuck does that actually mean? Seems he is implying that we will pay for what we are achieving, or over-achieving is what he is saying. But why say this, he knows our owner has turned his spending into equity rather than what Abramovich has done with Chelsea and held the club to account?


I think he means "as long as they pay".

Still largely bollocks what he's saying though.



I read that as meaning 'pay' as in are 'punished' - i.e. we will carry on until punished showing an intention on Twatini's behalf to perform a punishment


Yes, spot on. and that's why the "menace" of legal challenge must be shown up, whether it has full doctrinal ground or not.

1. "unintelligible language"
2. "ACID QUEEN"
3. "never once fails to turn a football thread into a himseelf thread"
4. "thumbs stalker often resulting in repetitive thumb strain"
5. ignore the cunt. he's on permantent wum mission. only TIDs may know City

You'd need to make a very good psychiatrist in order to guess what next in a eight yrs long line of hatred...


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there must be some truth, then!
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby mcfc1632 » Sun May 20, 2012 9:50 am

Beefymcfc wrote:
Rag_hater wrote:I can't see any rules they have made to enter their comp that we have broken.The sponsorship deals are something nobody has any precedent to follow.Any other rules we are complying with so they can't ban us for following rules they have made

Correct. Haven't United and Liverpool just signed massive sponsorship deals, 40 mil per year? Also, haven't United just had their training kit sponsored for 10 mil a year?

If those figures are correct then that's still well above our reported 35 mil a year. Maybe we'll be getting a few more sponsors soon though/up our current deals. After all, we are the Premier League title winners.



Agreed - as Ted and John have both said - and I agree with - the areas where UeFA risk a challenge are those in which there is no clear precedent. As an example whilst I would think that we are on dodgy ground if we were to seek to challenge that UeFA cannot make changes to their competition - their ground becomes more dodgy if they end up having to do things like disallow parts of our revenue – their rules are turnover based – if we comply then they will be possibly somewhat hoisted by their own petard’ – it will be somewhat desperate move to try and do things like not accept part of the Etihad deal – especially as we are now champions and there is much precedent already set.

But..... and this is why I miss Cook – we still need to significantly grow our revenues and that is why I say thank fuck for Khaldoon and Bobby.

If we had spent the last 2 years failing – doing a Chelsea (obviously before last night) and a Liverpool we would be in real trouble – but now as champions we will be able to attract more big sponsorships – I just worry that things need to be announced quickly and I would be confident that Cook would already have things well in hand – in his absence I hope someone else is being as effective
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun May 20, 2012 9:51 am

mcfc1632 wrote:
Tokyo Blue wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:'...because until they pay', what the fuck does that actually mean? Seems he is implying that we will pay for what we are achieving, or over-achieving is what he is saying. But why say this, he knows our owner has turned his spending into equity rather than what Abramovich has done with Chelsea and held the club to account?


I think he means "as long as they pay".

Still largely bollocks what he's saying though.



I read that as meaning 'pay' as in are 'punished' - i.e. we will carry on until punished showing an intention on Twatini's behalf to perform a punishment


I'm pretty sure he means we will have to pay when the owners leave, as in we will go bankrupt .

I don't think he has much idea what he is talking about & is just trying to pretend it's all about protecting us. I don't think he's even looked into City's finances or has any idea about us apart from the fact that we sign players and are likely to cause the elite problems. He is just doing favours for his mates & has not thought it through. He's just a fat, incompetent, freeloading cunt.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Beefymcfc » Sun May 20, 2012 9:57 am

Ted Hughes wrote:
mcfc1632 wrote:
Tokyo Blue wrote:
Beefymcfc wrote:'...because until they pay', what the fuck does that actually mean? Seems he is implying that we will pay for what we are achieving, or over-achieving is what he is saying. But why say this, he knows our owner has turned his spending into equity rather than what Abramovich has done with Chelsea and held the club to account?


I think he means "as long as they pay".

Still largely bollocks what he's saying though.



I read that as meaning 'pay' as in are 'punished' - i.e. we will carry on until punished showing an intention on Twatini's behalf to perform a punishment


I'm pretty sure he means we will have to pay when the owners leave, as in we will go bankrupt .

I don't think he has much idea what he is talking about & is just trying to pretend it's all about protecting us. I don't think he's even looked into City's finances or has any idea about us apart from the fact that we sign players and are likely to cause the elite problems. He is just doing favours for his mates & has not thought it through. He's just a fat, incompetent, freeloading cunt.

I think he knows exactly where we are at, we've given him all the evidence to say we can comply. It's just him being an obnoxious 'tard and banding up with his bosses. Here's 2 of his bosses, looking rather cosy I'd say.

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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby mcfc1632 » Sun May 20, 2012 10:09 am

john68 wrote:MCFC1632,

I have separated this post from the other because it deals with another issue which I think is a bigger one and one that is more permanent a threat and could be more injurious to City in the longer term. Not legal but political.
I have thought for a long time that these two issues have becoming mixed, blurred and confused together, but need to be discussed and debated separately.
For almost 30 years, a small group of clubs, led by an even smaller group have sought to create a model of football competition which id financially beneficial to them, sometimes to the detriment of others. They have bullied, coerced and threatened the ruling body in order to reach their aims. They disbanded their G14 lobby group, replacing it with the ECA, a body that they dominate and control, a body that is far more politically powerful, even on the World stage. They have forced UeFA to change the structure and the financial rules of competition in Europe, with the threat of withdrawing should UeFA not comply. Having succeeded in that, they are now intent on guarding their rear to safeguard their gains.
The FFP is only the tool that are presently using and should they fail, they will undoubtedly come back and try another tack. The FFP is only the tool, the more permanent threat remains a political one and will not go away.

It is for that last reason that I think City and other clubs have sought to comply with the FFP. We may be strong on the field but remain very weak and powerless within the politics of European football. We have few friends, if any. I can understand City not wanting to rock that political boat and become even more isolated within the power corridors of football. I think City MUST work towards compliance for pragmatic, political reasons and any legal challenge would only be a last resort that could have major repercussions against us.



John - this is for me places the focus on just where it should be – I have said in many posts that Twatini is just the errand boy striving to protect the UeFA position – the threat to which comes from the (Now named) ECA.

We have seen them willing destroy generations old and well-loved and respected competitions for the sole purpose of keeping themselves in place as the ‘administrators’ and having the (old named) G14 threat of a break-away league removed.

It is important to recognise that the outcome of those changes was to ensure the protection of those clubs in terms of revenue – hence the absolute farce of ‘dropping into the Europa league'. You rightly point out that FFP is just a new mechanism – introduced to address the new threat of ‘big investors’ which is something that has come along in a manner and at a level that they had not envisaged.

The noises are already frequent from Real Madrid and others about the need to revisit how the ‘Top Clubs’ should play each other in competition to maximise media revenues. Of course we have heard much from KHR and Hoeness – and after last night you can only think that this will go up several notches. Had they lost last night to RM or Barca – or the scum – well that is just unlucky – losing to a recent ‘gatecrasher’ based on ‘big investor’ money will just focus their fears and motivate their actions. As we have seen since last week domestically with baconface and Gill repeatedly stating the need for FFP to be effective.

We should all recognise that Twatini is largely just the organ-grinder’s monkey – the people that really wield the power are the top members of the ECA – and if they accelerate their thinking (and their fears) to decide that FFP is not going to cut it – then other mechanisms will be sought.

I have a big concern about the next negotiation of European TV rights – and I wonder if this will become a focus for Florentino Pérez, KHR, and Gill etc.

When I say FFP will be made to work – I mean Twatini has to if he is to retain the administrative controls within UeFA and placate his masters in the ECA.

Eited just to say that the picture of Twatini being given his instruction from 2 of his masters speaks volumes
Last edited by mcfc1632 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sport financial expert on SSN ref FFP

Postby Ted Hughes » Sun May 20, 2012 10:27 am

If you look back at his quotes about City all along, none of them have given any impression that he's even bothered to look at what we are doing. They are just the same kind of ignorant nonsense a rag in the pub would come out with.

He has just set it all in motion & just hopes it all works out. He has left others to try & sort out the details.


Here's a similar quote which shows how his thinking is puddled:

“I don’t know where we go with this system,’’

he lamented. “If they don’t earn money they will leave

and the clubs will disappear.

Check this one out:

I am a big fan of Real Madrid or Barcelona where the socios [members] are the voice of the club. I like the

fact that the clubs belong to the fans. The only ones with that local identity are the fans. Everything else

has changed: the president is foreign, the players are foreign, the coach is foreign. But they stay. Football

became popular because of this identity.”

Now read this:


(CNN) -- Michel Platini, the president of the governing body for European football (UEFA), has hit out at the

large fee offered by Real Madrid for the Portugal playmaker Cristiano Ronaldo.

"These transfers are a serious challenge to the idea of fair play and the concept of financial balance in our

competitions."

"UEFA is working hard with clubs to set up a new set of rules as soon as possible to clean up the system and give

it a more solid, transparent base," he added.

Also, in reference to the points we were discussing earlier:

SPIEGEL: In the summer, an investor from Qatar took over a majority stake in Paris Saint Germain and spent almost €90 million for new players. Some people apparently believe that success in sports can still be bought. Perhaps because your fair play regulations don't stipulate any concrete penalties?

Platini: It's not about killing the clubs; we want to help them. There is a range of possible sanctions, including monetary fines, a ban on signing new players and the exclusion from competitions.

SPIEGEL: The clubs are sure to look for loopholes. Manchester City, for example, is now receiving the unbelievable sum of £400 million (€458 million). It is supposedly advertising money, part of a 10-year contract with Abu Dhabi's state-owned airline. But the company is run by a half-brother of the club owner. One could argue it is sham sponsoring.

Platini: That will also be monitored. We have an expert commission tasked with determining which sponsorship deals are in line with market conditions. Then, we will decide on whether that is acceptable operative income or not. [highlight]Not everything will be easy and, at first, not everything will be perfect[/highlight]. But the political will to begin is there.

He's all over the fucking place.
The pissartist formerly known as Ted

VIVA EL CITY !!!

Some take the bible for what it's worth.. when they say that the rags shall inherit the Earth...
Well I heard that the Sheikh... bought Carlos Tevez this week...& you fuckers aint gettin' nothin..
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