BBC Panorama Documentary on Poland and Ukraine

[littlebig]

Britain deserves credit for it's actions on hooliganism and racism in football, and this feeds into society. However huge resources have been devoted to the effort.

Some countries have bigger fish to fry

[Ted Hughes]

Britain deserves credit for it's actions on hooliganism and racism in football, and this feeds into society. However huge resources have been devoted to the effort.

Some countries have bigger fish to fry

Should those countries be rewarded with international tournaments ?

[one man army]

Sorry if this sounds incredibly naive, but isn't Katowice a bottleneck of football violence, and considered one of the worst stadiums in Europe to visit, because the stadium is used by a lot of teams with hooligan firms and has such easy connections to poor/extreme right suburbs from most of the southern and western cities?

hmm... GKS Katowice ground is actually located in Chorzow - home of their biggest rivals, Ruch (Upper Silesia is a region with high density of cities and towns ergo football fans and hool's) so you can imagine there is a little tension between them. i don't have any knowledge if it's used the way as you described tho.

[one man army]

Britain deserves credit for it's actions on hooliganism and racism in football, and this feeds into society. However huge resources have been devoted to the effort.

Some countries have bigger fish to fry

Should those countries be rewarded with international tournaments ?

exactly.
uefa/fifa should organise every euro/world cup competition in the uk from now on. this world is swarmed with racists and xenophobes, even such nice people as portugese racially abused balo in porto... i'll sign a petition with no hesitation.

p.s. on a serious note, i think it was a really bad idea to run euros together with ukraine. no disrespect to these people but i don't think they are ready yet for such high profile competition. i'd rather see it done with czech republic or slovakia.

[Patrick]

apparently there is no problem with racism in uk, italy, france... makes me laugh, sorry boys.

In football in the UK I'd say it's been virtually stamped out barring the smallest of minorities..struggling to remember the last time I've heard it at a game

ok, let me try this way - how many of you went to poznan for europa league game last year? how many of you were victims of racial abuse or xenophobia? haven't seen crying on this forum. suddenly poland (not talking about ukraine, never been there) are racists.
or maybe it just has something to do with olympics? obvoiusly if you travel to watch euro, you may find yourself short of cash to spend during the games?
but yeah, i agree - do not travel there - white bears walk on the streets and you will get stabbed just when you come outside any polish airport :))))
and london is such a peaceful place, isnt it?

I went.

The difference between the policing at Poznan and the policing at say the Manchester derby last month was stark. I didn't see any racism, but that place was geared up for violence in a way I haven't seen in the uk for 20+ years. City fans were probably out numbered by riot cops. Having said that, your average city fan that travels to Europe is not the same as the average season ticket holder!

I also agree that the BBC went sensationalist last night. The Sol Campbell questions were fairly ridiculous.... Show some Indians getting beaten up....cut to Sol.... "would you advise people to travel there?"

About the same shite as your London and Olympic comments btw

But I too would be a bit pissed off to have Poland portrayed in the same light as the Ukraine if I was Polish! Nice country, nice people

[ant london]

One Man Army mate.....I understand that you are clearly proud of being Polish and of your country and are defending it to the hilt. I have no problem with that.

However, for what it's worth I've lived in several European countries and spent extensive periods in many more both east and west European. I've worked there and spent lots of time with locals.

What I will say about the UK (and I mean society in general NOT just football) is that racist attitudes are:

a) less prevelant
b) way, way, way less tolerated

than pretty much most other European countries (I'm excluding Scandinavia as I've not spent much time there) but certainly most EU countries and most countries from the Eastern Bloc

If you think your country has the issue "sorted" on a level with the UK you are delusional...and that would apply to most other countries.

The UK is a LONG way from perfect but it is one of the most integrated and tolerant countries on the European continent...by a long stretch.

And, as others have said, in football terms it is light years ahead.

Pretending that you have no problem in Poland is nonsense and you know it.

[simon12]

only within football? so are you trying to say that football racists and antisemitists are only seen at grounds? no mate, when they leave 'em they don't suddenly transform into friendly law abiding citizens. but these idiots are minority. vocal, but still minority.
the same in England - just because racism is officialy tackled in football, it doesn't mean is non-existent.
also are you really sure all England fans traveling to watch euros are polite, nice middle-class gentlemen? strangely i am quite confident you will see some HeadHunters, Combat18 or Inter City Firm among many, and they are hardly angels.
Panorama exaggerates problem (yeah, i've been to my ground many times and look... i'm still alive!).
the problem still exist, i'm not denying it but when i listen to sol campbell's slurs about coming back in coffins, my only reaction is laughter.
you may disagree but it's my opinion.
p.s. i'm still speaking about poland exclusively. ukraine is different matter and i think there will be problems with racists and nationalists.

What year is it in Poland?

[avoidconfusion]

Polish or Ukrainians shouting "Sieg Heil" just make me laugh cos they are so fucking dumb. They were the first people on Hitlers list.

[Alex Sapphire]

only within football? so are you trying to say that football racists and antisemitists are only seen at grounds? no mate, when they leave 'em they don't suddenly transform into friendly law abiding citizens. but these idiots are minority. vocal, but still minority.
the same in England - just because racism is officialy tackled in football, it doesn't mean is non-existent.
also are you really sure all England fans traveling to watch euros are polite, nice middle-class gentlemen? strangely i am quite confident you will see some HeadHunters, Combat18 or Inter City Firm among many, and they are hardly angels.
Panorama exaggerates problem (yeah, i've been to my ground many times and look... i'm still alive!).
the problem still exist, i'm not denying it but when i listen to sol campbell's slurs about coming back in coffins, my only reaction is laughter.
you may disagree but it's my opinion.
p.s. i'm still speaking about poland exclusively. ukraine is different matter and i think there will be problems with racists and nationalists.

what we need now is a righteously indignant Ukrainian
for balance

[Dazzacity]

So we see a few gangs of lads doin Nazi salutes and suddenly every Pole and Ukrainian is a racist. I think there will be trouble at the Euros and lets face it, with our history, England fans will prob be at the centre of it all. I dont think the Police will be able to handle it.

Did we hear racist chants when we played Kiev and Poznan?? I dont recall any.

[CityGer]

So we see a few gangs of lads doin Nazi salutes and suddenly every Pole and Ukrainian is a racist. I think there will be trouble at the Euros and lets face it, with our history, England fans will prob be at the centre of it all. I dont think the Police will be able to handle it.

Did we hear racist chants when we played Kiev and Poznan?? I dont recall any.

Who said that?

Did you watch the programme?

[Dazzacity]

So we see a few gangs of lads doin Nazi salutes and suddenly every Pole and Ukrainian is a racist. I think there will be trouble at the Euros and lets face it, with our history, England fans will prob be at the centre of it all. I dont think the Police will be able to handle it.

Did we hear racist chants when we played Kiev and Poznan?? I dont recall any.

Who said that?

Did you watch the programme?

Ah, I was thinkin of the skysports one which looked a bit bollox to me. The fights ect looked very staged. I havent seen the BBC one but would like to see it. Iv also seen the Ross Kemp and Danny Dyer ones.Like I say, I havent seen the BBC one and that might change my opinions. Im just stating that it cant be nice for the Polish fella to view this topic and see members practically branding his people as racists. To be fair, the worst bunch Iv seen for Racism has been the Spanish and the Portugues !!

[BlueinBosnia]

To be honest, I think most of the problems will be outside the grounds, and won't be race related (although I believe wholeheartedly that a small percentage of it will be). However, most of the violence will be directed towards the English.

Films like Football Factory and Green Street have re-glorified British hooliganism, and (I don't know whether there's any causality here) there has been a rise in hooligan culture/hooligan chic over the past half dozen years or so. Add this to our generally boozy nature and perceived arrogance towards all other nations, and it's a recipe for disaster. I reckon 3-4 England fans will die out in Ukraine, with at least one of them being at the hands of the police.

On the flip side, I think the fact England are in Ukraine may be a blessing in disguise for a number of reasons. First, it will deter a large number of families and more sensible fans from going. Second, I think fans will be a bit more cautious and reserved than if they were in Poland, where cities such as Wroclaw and Krakow are already established 'weekender bender' destinations, and it only needs a group congregating in a market square to attract trouble. Had England been drawn to play in Poland, I think there'd have been scenes like in Belgium in 2000.

On the subject of racism, there will be a lot of 'crowd mentality' involved with Nazi salutes and chants. There simply won't be 2,000 committed racists prowling the streets in Poland to commit hate crimes. There may be a few hundred looking for trouble, though, regardless of race.

[Nigels Tackle]

are there any men left in the ukraine and poland? i thought that they were all here nicking our jobs?

[ross.mcfc]

It is the same evey major sporting event. You would die of pollution posioning if you went to Beijing and would be stabbed by a black ghetto dweller in South Africa. Both events are regarded sucsesses as will this one. Whilst I agree you cant say do not come to the London olympics because of last years riots. I doubt if the Olympics were in say LA the media would be banging on about pollution levels. It is the sort of mentality that keeps Brits flocking for their eggs and chips at Del Boys in Costa Brava.

Eurovision was held in Azerbaijan year. Despite the fact that Azerbaijanians who vote for Armenia last year were put on a list of national security threats!

Ukraines pathetic attempt at democracy would be a good enough reason never to go there but you could find several reasons to warn against going to any country if you are actively looking for a reason.

[Manny padovan]

Disgusting stuff....

The police seem to be totally uninterested that fascists are openly being racists and anti-smetic. As a socialist, and who's a relative of someone who felt the full force of Fascists during the 2nd world war - i would avoid poland and Ukraine like the plague.

I'm not saying all poles and Ukrainians fans are fascists, but it does seem like a large minority are. They seem well organised and committed to giving a "unique" welcome to anyone of a different race, sexuality, religion and politics.

I wish those clubs in poland and ukraine followed the tolerance shown by St Paulii.

[one man army]

watching former Widzew Lodz defender, Ugo Ukah complaining about his treatment in Poland... yeah, he was such a victim of racial abuse that he had decided to spend 5 years there earning tens of thousands zloties each month...
also it's quite funny how much time the authors spent in my city where not a single euro game will be played and just a handful of fans (certainly not English, at least not until quarter-finals) will be staying there. and it's just because LKS and our local rivals have bad reputation (justified but still exaggerated). pure sensationalism.
it's nothing wrong with ultras - hooligans are the problem.
and the reasons England fans may be in trouble is your reputation and history. but believe me, there are people who will be more than happy to match themselves with Polish and Ukrainian hool's for the simple reason - they can't do it over here on such scale!
i am even more convinced that this propaganda is aimed to stop England fans travelling abroad before the Olympics.

ant london - no, this is not 'sorted' on a level with the UK obviously, i've never suggested that. how many times i have to write that racism and nationalism ARE present within Polish football hooligans movements? but if you look at demographics, there is only 3.6% of ethnic minorities living in my country, obviously it's not an huge and ongoing issue in my country. it's just some idiots who give us bad name.
and i'll tell you something, my father is not Polish, my name and surname don't sound Polish at all... and i've never ever been a victim of any kind of xenophobic rants or anything like that.
but even in the UK (outside football) things don't always look sweet and this issue is still ongoing (NBP, EDL, Blood and Honour but also Rochdale girls grooming, events in Hyde etc.)

[Wonderwall]

The bbc documentary was pretty graphic. I wonder what would have happened if garth crooks was the doing the investigative journalism? No matter what slant is put on it, the programme last night was brutal and the scale of the chanting was circa 70's uk. Those feelings are not going to disappear for a few weeks whilst the Euro's are on and I would actively discourage my friends who are thinking of going.

[Surrey Sky Blue]

Quick Question for One Man Army...... What the hell is going on in your Avatar??................................................. :-(

[one man army]

Quick Question for One Man Army...... What the hell is going on in your Avatar??................................................. :-(

http://youtu.be/Ohvovpervxs