Khaldoon, Soriano, Tricky.

[Tokyo Blue]

What would be good enough evidence of moving in the right direction?

Good question.

[Twobob]

Bit of a tangent this but seems a good enough thread to put it in.

One aspect of the move to holistic if you like is the promise and push to be producing our own players who can play the way we want. If Barca are anything to go by then those players have to be very good but they don't have to be all Messi.

So with that in mind and looking at the current debate on here about buying every mega star around in order to try and make us feel better about competing in the short term; my question is this:

As a City fan, having our history in mind, would you be prepared to just see us build for the longer term for the next few years, or have we all now switched to give it me all and give me now?

We have to be mindful of the longterm mate, if there was real promise in the academy then the vision will work. We need top quality players to already be in the team though and a good approach to getting the kids through, they're not all going to turn out like SWP's and most will turn into Willlo Flood's even if they once did show promise.

I believe we do have the core of a top quality side, even last season we showed what we can do but, for reasons that have been debated for many weeks/months, we also showed our negative side.

If the likes of Guidette (sp?) live up to expectations and can get out of the sick room then i would prefer to see them in our squad than buy more mercenaries, even if it does mean we have a slightly stuttering season again. These kids need real competitive game time to develop , or they go backwards like Dennis Suarez has reportedly done.

However there are the feckless and feeble minded that allow themselves to be brainwashed by the biased press and 3 games into a season will be spitting hell fire and enjoying their little personal victories that 'they were right and we were failing' if we don't win each game at a canter or, god forbid, the opposition team turn up and try and use our ball!

[Twobob]

Good question.

It is, and for me the progression would be that we can maintain our CL spot (top 3) keep up a good challenge for the title and have good cup runs all while we're blooding our own youth players along side the class we already have. Chelsea havent been able to do it and in the last 4/5 years neither have the scum (although you would think that every player was born and raised in Trafford Park if you listen to them bleat).

Of course getting out of the group stages of the CL is key too, we need to get out of that '3rd' pot we're shoved in and avoid the nasty groups like we had the last two attempts!

[Im_Spartacus]

Likewise on that, both aspirations can be accommodated, and in reality have to be.. City cannot let the team go to seed while waiting for something to build.
So the word has got to be balance then. How do City balance keeping the current squad fighting for the title and allowing some opportunities for the academy lads to get in there?

What would be good enough evidence of moving in the right direction?

I think the embedding of the footballing philosophy in all levels of the club that has been going on for some time is ample evidence of the direction the club is moving in, and was even before the spafia came in.

Nothing would please me more than to see us supplement the current squad in the short term with quality unproven (or lets say less obvious in the case of Negredo) players at a lower price into a squad where the manager can give them room to grow as players. The single biggest criticism of Mancini for me was his rigidity and stifling the natural talent of players in an incredibly rigid system, so again a measure of how we are progressing towards being able to nurture young talent, or even integrate the less obvious purchases like Rodwell, Nastasic, is allowing the players we have the space to express themselves but without putting the team's performances at risk of relying on everyone doing their own thing.

If it means we lose a few games along the way, or miss out on some trophies along the way, I have to say I'm cool with that, so long as we get a real sense of what we are aiming to do as a club.

The confusing part is when we ha e tied up a young spine of megastars on new contracts, yet keep being linked with mega purchases like Cavani which really aren't necessary when we can build around the likes of Hart, Kompany. Richards, Zabba, Silva, Aguero.

If the club intend to buy sensible, we will soon see this come to the fore - yes missing out on Isco was a downer, and I think a club like city have to be in for players with exceptional talent like him and Hazard, but there will be others, we just need to pick our fights and targets carefully, identify the one we really want and believe in, and go and get him no matter what the cost - if we think he can be here for 7-10 years a £30m transfer fee really is actually a bargain in todays climate, and Alcantara seems potentially to fit that bill at the moment to be honest.

Exciting times, and what shakes out between now and .august will very much define manchester city of the next 5 years I think

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

It's all well and good talking about our youth production but very few of them seem to posses genuine top talent level. We talk about some 22 year olds but since we are using Barcelona as reference Xavi was 18 when he broke through, Messi was 18 as well, Iniesta was 19, even Valdes was 20. How many teenagers do we have knocking the door?

[Peter Doherty (AGAIG)]

Good question.

It is, and for me the progression would be that we can maintain our CL spot (top 3) keep up a good challenge for the title and have good cup runs all while we're blooding our own youth players along side the class we already have. Chelsea havent been able to do it and in the last 4/5 years neither have the scum (although you would think that every player was born and raised in Trafford Park if you listen to them bleat).

Of course getting out of the group stages of the CL is key too, we need to get out of that '3rd' pot we're shoved in and avoid the nasty groups like we had the last two attempts!

We were in the second pot last season. Dortmund were in the fourth.

[Im_Spartacus]

We were in the second pot last season. Dortmund were in the fourth.

From what i remember, we were in the third, Ajax were 2nd seeds last year, placed about 17th/18th on the coefficient list, but have now dropped well out of the top 20 or so clubs on account of their coefficient.

[Im_Spartacus]

It's all well and good talking about our youth production but very few of them seem to posses genuine top talent level. We talk about some 22 year olds but since we are using Barcelona as reference Xavi was 18 when he broke through, Messi was 18 as well, Iniesta was 19, even Valdes was 20. How many teenagers do we have knocking the door?

Xavi was poor for a long long time though wasnt he - he could easily have been binned off in the early days. messi was always going to be a talent, and was persevered with in the early days too even though he wasnt ready.

[carl_feedthegoat]

It's all well and good talking about our youth production but very few of them seem to posses genuine top talent level. We talk about some 22 year olds but since we are using Barcelona as reference Xavi was 18 when he broke through, Messi was 18 as well, Iniesta was 19, even Valdes was 20. How many teenagers do we have knocking the door?

When you had the likes of Mancinis support staff training them are you fuckign surprised noone was given a chance or improved themselves , talk about going backwards ffs !! ,also Mancinis sons inclusion was the biggest piss take and blatant nepatism ever seen at City , who dipped out playing when them 2 were at the club ?...somone had to suffer a place in a starting reserve 11 etc...shocking.

We need to sort this out asap..get people in who train the players to actually play football the way it should be taught.

[Twobob]

It's all well and good talking about our youth production but very few of them seem to posses genuine top talent level. We talk about some 22 year olds but since we are using Barcelona as reference Xavi was 18 when he broke through, Messi was 18 as well, Iniesta was 19, even Valdes was 20. How many teenagers do we have knocking the door?

In the last 5/6 years i'd say we've gone backwards in the talent coming through the youth ranks, talent goes in but very little has come out 'yet' and unless they get the game time any current talent will get stifled but they're not going to be the top talent from day one mentally or physically and at present the pack of hyaenas we seem to have following this club would only make them worse.

[Beefymcfc]

If they've got what it takes, they will make it. If they haven't then do we bring them through regardless?

[Im_Spartacus]

If they've got what it takes, they will make it. If they haven't then do we bring them through regardless?

Its a tough one isnt it, as there will always be some who are late developers like Xavi for example, and others who you really need to see in action at the top level before you can make a definite informed decision.

I think the rags have it right by having the younger players around the squad, and although they have sub standard players like welbeck, they come on and do a job, and fill in reasonably well without dragging the team down when they start the odd game.

They lead the way in terms of managing a good salary base for their squad by having a mix of youth and experience - we are still some way off that, but when winning 2-0 at home with 75 gone, there is no reason we should need to see Nasri coming on for Silva just to give him game time, that suggests we probably have too many players in his position imo.

Nasri should be the starter in other games to give Silva a rest, and the likes of suarez should be getting the 15 minutes exposure against a tiring team - at that point, if he isnt showing improvement after a year of that exposure, fuck him off. I certainly dont think Mancini had it wrong last year not giving these guys a go when games were tight, but he failed for me by not giving them a game when we were home and dried.

Perhaps we really do have too much quality in certain positions for this to happen. maybe we will see Nasri leave and not be replaced for example now we have fernandinho who can play in a variety roles.

[Beefymcfc]

If they've got what it takes, they will make it. If they haven't then do we bring them through regardless?

Its a tough one isnt it, as there will always be some who are late developers like Xavi for example, and others who you really need to see in action at the top level before you can make a definite informed decision.

I think the rags have it right by having the younger players around the squad, and although they have sub standard players like welbeck, they come on and do a job, and fill in reasonably well without dragging the team down when they start the odd game.

They lead the way in terms of managing a good salary base for their squad by having a mix of youth and experience - we are still some way off that, but when winning 2-0 at home with 75 gone, there is no reason we should need to see Nasri coming on for Silva just to give him game time, that suggests we probably have too many players in his position imo.

Nasri should be the starter in other games to give Silva a rest, and the likes of suarez should be getting the 15 minutes exposure against a tiring team - at that point, if he isnt showing improvement after a year of that exposure, fuck him off. I certainly dont think Mancini had it wrong last year not giving these guys a go when games were tight, but he failed for me by not giving them a game when we were home and dried.

Perhaps we really do have too much quality in certain positions for this to happen. maybe we will see Nasri leave and not be replaced for example now we have fernandinho who can play in a variety roles.

I think we should have 2 from the Academy on the bench at all times, roles dependant on needs. Like you say, giving them a run-out should be paramount but only if we have the game sorted or they have proved to be an asset rather than a ball and chain around the rest of the team.

On a similar note, I don't agree with playing them in the early round of the cups for the sake of it either. We have a team that can challenge in all areas and that's what we should do. Allowing a number of young players to try and prove themselves often leads to disappoinment as they don't have the relative experience which could lead to the players going backwards due to confidence issues.

What I'd like to see is a nice blend where those with potential get a chance to shine against the back-drop of senior players bringing their game on. Until we have that potential, I'm happy to stick with 'bought to order' players.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

We were in the second pot last season. Dortmund were in the fourth.

From what i remember, we were in the third, Ajax were 2nd seeds last year, placed about 17th/18th on the coefficient list, but have now dropped well out of the top 20 or so clubs on account of their coefficient.

We were definitely pot 2 last season, we've dropped to 3 for the coming season. ( Dippers are still pot 1 btw #farce )

[Im_Spartacus]

We were definitely pot 2 last season, we've dropped to 3 for the coming season. ( Dippers are still pot 1 btw #farce )

Yep im wrong sorry

[Twobob]

We were definitely pot 2 last season, we've dropped to 3 for the coming season. ( Dippers are still pot 1 btw #farce )

You're spot on, it seemed like we were in pot 3, either it was how shite we played or how the other teams showed us how to play!